Newby Taiji Teacher

[DeusTrismegistus]

Obviously, I am lacking in teaching experience compared to other posters here. However, my Sifu always used to say "never offer more to your students than they are willing to give".

I forgot who mentioned the hippie Taiji-health lady, but I think that would present an interesting teaching challenge. I have to wonder: *is* there a way to teach correct Taiji without resorting to combat scenarios? It would seem like it should be possible. I'll have to think about it.

The reason I think so is because I occasionally run into students on the flip-side of this coin in Kung Fu and Jujitsu: i.e. the ones that are usually young men that only want to learn combat application. If it doesn't have immediate applicability in a ring or octagon, they think it's just fluff and lose all interest. These students are also frustrating because they are often very good fighters, experienced in other MA styles, and it's hard to actually prove anything with them without actually kicking their ass at least once. Very often, if you mention "Qi" or "Dantien" to them, they just run for the hills because they think you're trying get all mystical. So I have to talk about breathing, rooting, centering, posture, connection, sensitivity, and Jing in terms of bio-mechanics and physics.

You have to get them to experience the difference. Spar them at the beginning of class, then go through all the normal taiji stuff, then spar them again. Do this after about 2 to 4 weeks of consistent practice in class and they should notice the difference themselves.

[Tesshu]

Replacing "dantien" with "your center" works indeed, but it is sort of a detour. Let's see what John has to say as he seems "allergic" as well

Sylkworm, you can teach quite correct postures without the martial if you go for the spherical inside the postures and movements.

[Chris McKinley]

RE: "These students are also frustrating because they are often very good fighters, experienced in other MA styles, and it's hard to actually prove anything with them without actually kicking their ass at least once.". Or you could simply kick their ass at least once. Frankly, if that's not possible, then their attitude is justified anyway. Or you could try working with some high-speed military personnel. In terms of being demanding, they'll make your boys seem like dream students.

In a perfect world, it would be possible to communicate to your already-able-to-fight guys how Taijiquan could give them attributes which would improve upon their already-existing skill set simply by describing it to them. However, anyone pushing Taijiquan in this country is already behind the eight ball in a serious way because of decades of hordes of charlatans, bullshit artists, and snake oil salesmen posing as Tie Chee instructors. It's so bad that anybody remotely real is going to be seen as a bizarre anomoly, not as representative of the art.

Guys like the men you're describing have heard the whole Tie Chee spiel a billion times before over many years and not once has it ever actually been true. They (in the everyman sense) have been burnt so many times by the crap we're spewing that they've run out of patience with talk. When you couple that with the fact that they can go literally down the street, walk in to a modern MMA gym and not only won't they be given a bunch of talk, they'll walk out able to fight better that very day, it's easy to see why most folks aren't willing to give Taijiquan the benefit of the doubt anymore. Put bluntly, we've earned it. And guys who seek to rectify, reverse or even just mitigate that reputation even a tiny little bit are fighting a huge uphill battle against decades of nationwide negative perception.

Best of luck to you anyway.

[nianfong]

sylkworm: if you don't have your own ideas for a curriculum, start with how and what you were taught, and change from there.

personally, I would teach fundamentals the first few classes without even touching on any fist set (like 24 stance, 48 stance, 108 etc). Maybe give them an inkling or two with some basic techniques.

my first taiji class, my teacher taught us stretching, the 8 basic shaolin stances, and the 5 basic taiji movements: wuji (standing, hugging the tree), rising-falling, rotating, side-shifting, and opening-closing.
and then put it together with the pipa technique.
second class he reviewed and added the repulse monkey technique, with stationary feet, and maybe the parting wild horse's mane, with stationary feet also.

He just kept adding from there until we had the 8 fundamental taiji techniques down, including footwork: repulse monkey, parting wild horse's mane, brush knee twist step, splitting heel kick, golden rooster stands on one leg, lu-ji form (basically the lu and ji parts of grasp the sparrow's tail), cloud hands, grasp the sparrow's tail.

and then he taught us the 24 stance form.

if you think about it, it's like teaching language. 1st you teach basic strokes/letters (fundamental stances/postures/movements). once those are mastered, you teach words/characters (techniques). Once those are mastered, you teach sentences (forms). And then comes free debate/papers (sparring).

this is the approach I'd use for taichi. xingyi... the sparring would come very very very early .

[johnwang]

the concept of "Dantien" for example is vital for teaching Tai Chi Chuan. As I read in your other thread you don't work with that. How do you teach TCC and is it really TCC or a variation of your SC skills? (no offense, just curious)

I teach 2 men application first, solo drills later (as shown in the following clip), and form last. I treat my Taiji class the same as any other combat art. Just do it and not talk about it. The Dantien "藏氣(Zang Qi) - accumulate Qi" is in the last move of the Chang Taiji form "合太極(He Taiji) - Taiji close stance" that I usually teach it on the 1st day and repeat it in every class as one of the most important drill among all the others. By using 合太極(He Taiji), I teach students how to breath the Taiji way and how to feel Dantian. IMO, the IP/IS can be developed by drills like in the following clip. Again, just do it and not talk about it. That was the way I learned it and that is the way I teach it. The only difference is that I added "leg move" into my Taiji drills that my teacher didn't feel like to do it through all his life (he preferred to keep that part as personal secret instead).

http://johnswang.com/Chang_Taiji_drills.wmv

Replacing "dantien" with "your center" works indeed, but it is sort of a detour. Let's see what John has to say as he seems "allergic" as well

Dantien is not the center. When you bend forward/backward your gravity center is no longer at you dantian area. Your center will move around but your Dantien will not.

[Tesshu]

Thanks for your answer.
Dantien =/= center is true. For meditation practice it works for fighting it doesn't work. As I said: it's a detour.

No to think too much about it is also true. When people treat things too brainy they mostly get lost on their path. I think IMA is very good if you don't like to think about things too much. Most of the power comes through a change in mindset (and I don't mean the rational mind) and the combination of said mindset with repeated practice in certain ways depending on style and school. Conditioning is one of the keys. Meditation is another.

[johnwang]

This is my faith. "If you think you have, you may not have it. If you don't know you have it, you may already have it." Whether it's true or not, it sounds very smart and very deep and that's for sure.

[edededed]

It is possible to achieve some things, like xiaozhoutian, without knowing it.

[johnwang]

Just do it and not talk about it.

"If you think you have, you may not have it. If you don't know you have it, you may already have it."

You can also develop Sung, Peng, sticky, yield, borrow force, body unification, all body parts move/stop simultaneously, body leads limbs, ... without even knowing those terms. The external term "bring out your Shenfa" can cover a lot of those principles.

When you ask your opponent to apply any

- lock on you, you unify your entire body to dissolve his locking force, you already have Peng in your body.
- throw on you, you sink, relax, collapse, redirect, ..., you already have Sung in your body.

You may already have both Peng and Sung and you don't even know that you have it. If you are still talking about Peng and Sung, you may have it in your head but you may not have it yet on your body.

If you have never had a girl, you may talk about girls all day long. If you have more girls than you can handle, you may not care talking about it.

[DeusTrismegistus]

This is my faith. "If you think you have, you may not have it. If you don't know you have it, you may already have it." Whether it's true or not, it sounds very smart and very deep and that's for sure.

I know this is true because it is how I was taught. I never heard the words peng or sung until I started reading this forum. I figured out what they meant by identifying the terms with my own experience.

Talk is overrated. If you have a class and you stay busy doing stuff then you will progress. Talking can help but it can also serve as a diversion with beginners especially.

I think this has actually been a good thread with lots of good points especially by baliewen.

[johnwang]

If you have a class and you stay busy doing stuff then you will progress.

IMO, you can not learn Taiji principles through the solo form training. For example, if you want to develop your 靠(Kao) through 2 men drill. You can use left hand to raise up your opponent's right arm, right hand to pull down your opponent's left arm (up and down separate hands), you then slide in and strike your shoulder on your opponent's chest. If you can knock your opponent back with your body momentum, you already have your skill of 靠(Kao). This is why I like to start with 2 men drill instead of solo form. You develop your ability by using your 2 men drill. You then use your solo drill (not form) to enhance it (when you a along).

[DeusTrismegistus]

If you have a class and you stay busy doing stuff then you will progress.

IMO, you can not learn Taiji principles through the solo form training. For example, if you want to develop your 靠(Kao) through 2 men drill. You can use left hand to raise up your opponent's right arm, right hand to pull down your opponent's left arm (up and down separate hands), you then slide in and strike your shoulder on your opponent's chest. If you can knock your opponent back with your body momentum, you already have your skill of 靠(Kao). This is why I like to start with 2 men drill instead of solo form. You develop your ability by using your 2 men drill. You then use your solo drill (not form) to enhance it (when you a along).

I agree. Everything I practice in taiji is things I have felt while working with others. I will know my slanting fly is good when I can use it to hit with my forearm and lift someone in the air like my teacher has done to me. The feeling of having that done to me is what lets me practice my slanting fly with correct intent.

[gzregorz]

Just walk around saying "ooohhh you're so tense... you need to learn to relax" - people love that shit, and if anybody asks to fight you just say, "what is this kung fu?" You'll be fine.

Then when they ask you why they're so tense tell them it's because they carry around too much emotional baggage.

When they want to find out more tell them that they're really not looking for a taiji teacher but a father and you cannot be that for them.

Then they'll be ready to pay you anything.

But should they leave you tell the others that the student wasn't ready to face their own shit. The others will see you as infinitely wise and do anything you say so they are not seen as someone else who is like that too.

The cult is now yours.

[johnwang]

Just walk around saying "ooohhh you're so tense... you need to learn to relax" - people love that shit, and if anybody asks to fight you just say, "what is this kung fu?" You'll be fine.

You can also walk behind a student, put your hand 1 feet above his head, and pretend your are pulling his hair up. If that student asks what you are doing, just tell him that you are helping him to bring his Qi from his Dantien all the way up to the top of his head.

[cdobe]

Just walk around saying "ooohhh you're so tense... you need to learn to relax" - people love that shit, and if anybody asks to fight you just say, "what is this kung fu?" You'll be fine.

Then when they ask you why they're so tense tell them it's because they carry around too much emotional baggage.

When they want to find out more tell them that they're really not looking for a taiji teacher but a father and you cannot be that for them.

Then they'll be ready to pay you anything.

But should they leave you tell the others that the student wasn't ready to face their own shit. The others will see you as infinitely wise and do anything you say so they are not seen as someone else who is like that too.

The cult is now yours.

QFT