Danger assessment on Da Streetz(TM)

[Bhassler]

From another thread:

...<Snip>...

County morgues are all too full of 'reasonable' victims. Life-threatening assaults are not reasonable situations and do not call for reasonable, well-socialized responses and actions. I think perhaps you may also be off-track in what you are labelling a self-defense situation. If the attacker is so uncommitted to taking your life or that of someone present in your charge that you can afford to "knock him down the first time he attacks to see what he will do", then you are not in an unavoidable situation and, frankly, you shouldn't be fighting him at all, you should be leaving.

If he, or his accomplices, are that committed, you would be suicidally foolish to give him any opportunity at all to attack you to the extent that such a choice is within your hands. If you, miraculously, were somehow capable of knocking down an attacker intent on taking your life on his first attack, I'll tell you precisely what he will do next. He'll draw his weapon and kill you, and possibly whomever is with you at the time. Unfortunately, this is how real life goes down....there's nothing reasonable about it and there's no room for "least possible harm" philosophies in a situation where life is at stake.

Short of that, it's not really a self-defense situation anyway, it's a scuffle...a good old-fashioned donnybrook. Now, if you're engaging in those, you get whatever's coming to you because they are almost always avoidable.

Given this definition of a self defense situation, how does one assess the level of danger short of an actual physical attack already having occurred? How does one differentiate between someone looking for an old-fashioned donnybrook vs. someone wanting your wallet that you could just give to them vs. someone intent upon killing?

[Chris McKinley]

Each situation is different. Context, while not guaranteed, will usually dictate what kind of situation you're facing. Any existing conversation/exchange/argument will often provide a wealth of clues. Unusual behavior that occurs in public without a conversational pretext must almost always be assumed to be imminently and intensely violent, and only once that assumption is in place can one allow further observances, deductions, words and behavior to inform that perception, possibly allowing it to be re-callibrated downward in intensity.

I'll start the conversation with that for consideration.

[Simon]

You might want to check out Geoff Thompsons material he has some very inspirational and practical advice on all the pre fight information that will be broadcasted from potential attackers and how you can learn to understand the approach , the interview, and then how to use a fence and the magic ingredient the pre emptive strike.

For an even more serious look check out Dennis Martins CQC site he has lots of info and articles.

Simon

[Bhassler]

Simon,
Thanks, good stuff. I particularly like Geoff Thompson's stuff (not necessarily because it's more relevant, it's just a nice read).

Chris,
One thing I've noticed is that there are a lot of "interviews" going on in the street. Addicts, bums, and thugs all have their own interviews, and from what I've seen many habitually interview everyone. One case in particular I can think of where I was approached by a guy who gave real life to the concept of a bigger, stronger, tougher, and less human/humane professional predator wasn't especially dangerous because of the particulars of the environment (lunchtime in front of a police station)-- he wasn't planning to take anyone out, he was just doing his thing and seeing what he could get. So that was a situation that met many of the behavioral criteria someone could give as rules of thumb but where I would have been asking for a world of hurt had I gone ahead and pre-emptively tried to take the guy out.

I get that it has to be a judgment call on a case by case basis, and that gut feel is critical. I just like to bring things up and elicit aspects that I may not have considered.

[Bhassler]

Also, could you clarify what you mean by "a conversational pretext?"

[Chris McKinley]

Bhassler,

RE: "One thing I've noticed is that there are a lot of "interviews" going on in the street.". The "interview", as Geoff Thompson, lots of other RBSD guys, and literally any cop refers to it, is not a reference to verbal exchange, per se. It's a bodily posture....one that provides at least marginal protection of high and low gates and leaves the officer's (or whomever is using it) limbs in a ready position to strike out or block if necessary.

RE: "So that was a situation that met many of the behavioral criteria someone could give as rules of thumb but where I would have been asking for a world of hurt had I gone ahead and pre-emptively tried to take the guy out.". It sounds like you are correct in your assessment. If the guy presents no imminent threat of violence and isn't preventing your egress from the situation, then the common sense solution is simply to leave, perhaps with a stop-off at the police station along the way to alert them to his behavior.

RE: "Also, could you clarify what you mean by "a conversational pretext?"". Sure. Almost all non-sportive fights begin with a verbal exchange taking place first. Typically, there is a ramp-up of intensity, posturing, threats, physical movements, etc. that precedes the actual exchange of blows. Someone may act in an otherwise atypical way if they are drawn into the passion of the verbal exchange. That violence might then ensue is probably not much of a surprise to anybody by the time the words get that heated.

In contrast, people do not typically act in noticeably unusual, strange, or out-of-context ways in public without first interacting with at least one other person, usually in the form of some kind of verbal exchange, thus the conversational pretext. Odd behavior, without any noticeable prompt, is often an indicator of potentially high danger. Granted, some people are just plain weird and do odd things just for a reaction, and time will bear out whether this is the case with a given individual. However, upon noticing such behavior in someone in public, without any interactive prompt from another person, such behavior must instantly be assumed to be potentially dangerous and violent since if it is, you may get no further warning before violent behavior starts.

Now, that doesn't mean you draw down and double-tap the next oddly-dressed guy in public who scratches his nose funny. Individual judgment and common sense will still and always rule. It also doesn't mean necessarily that you immediately take overt action. Sometimes if somebody starts doing something that makes your Spidey sense tingle, it might be more prudent to watch them for a moment to gather further information before you take any action which might alert him to your awareness of his behavior.

Again, most of the time, further observation will lead one to the conclusion that the initial perception and assumption can be "downgraded", so to speak, and the behavior just chalked up to random weirdness. But any time unusual behavior actually captures one's notice, it should always default to a perception of possible danger in lieu of any other decisive information, and downgraded accordingly if and when further information warrants it.

[RobP2]

It's down to experience and awareness largely. Also being aware that when you are "not in Kansas anymore" people may operate by a different set of rules.

You can practice this stuff anytime - after a while you will get an eye for potential trouble makers. Bdy language is a great indicator of what is going on inside. Clothing and general deportment can give a clue as to lifestyle and possible behaviour. For example the heroin addicts in town are usually very easy to spot. Of course you have to take fashion into account, some people like to dress "gangster" but are actually nice suburban kids.

In crowds or where there is alcohol involved watch for the loudmouths. they may not start the trouble themselves but that's generally where it will kick off.

Keep your wits about you, no need to be paranoid, use a bit of common sense and also listen tou your intuition, if something feels wrong it usually is.
There's a great post on Steve Wildash's blog about this and also an interesting recent epxerience he had
http://stevewildash.blogspot.com/2010/05/scanning-before-contact.html

[Andy_S]

Ah Dennis Martin - the English version of Chris McK.

What is his website? He used to write a very good self-protection column in the only decent MA magazine ever printed - ie Fighting Arts International. (Which, incidentally, is where Geoff Thomson got his start in writing about all this stuff).

Now kindly do not take the pish out of what I am next going to say...but I learned this wee tip from a chap who did, erm, Ninjitsu. (OK, laugh. Go on. Get it out of your system.) Anyway said chap told me that when he is not infilitrating castles and assasinating shoguns, but is, instead, walking down his local high street, he makes a habit of seeing people before they see him.

A simple concept, but a solid one when you think about it, and interesting to practice as one goes about one's daily business.

It was a bit of a revelation for me, as I dunno about you, but when I am mincing down da streetz, I am on dream-time or checking out the sterns on passing babes rather than scoping out those around me. My friend the assassin, however, always had eyes well outboard, and antennae fully tuned.

[Simon]

Hi Andy his website is http://www.cqbservices.com/index.php?s=cqc

He has a lot of great interviews this is a favorite of mine re Gary Spiers interviewed by Terry O neil http://www.cqbservices.com/?page_id=322 it inspires at the same time as getting across the seriousness of combat and making use of a system rather than being a slave to it.

Simon

[Giles]

A simple concept, but a solid one when you think about it, and interesting to practice as one goes about one's daily business.

Absolutely that. It has served me well on so many occasions. Just to give one example: one evening on the outskirts of Hamburg I was cycling home late one summer night along a large road between shops (no traffic then) when I saw a group of people walking along the pavement/sidewalk on my side, coming towards me but still 100 m. away. I could only see outlines, too far away. They were just walking, but there was something about their body language that made some instinct in my mind immediately say "not quite kosher". Without any logical consideration I turned the bike onto the road itself (I was cycling fast) and went past them at at distance of around 15 metres. I could see now they were all guys, about 5 or 6. As I passed one of them called out something to me, half challenging and half kind of acknowledging, and I then felt very certain that if I hadn't have clocked them and just kept on my previous course, things could have suddenly turned quite nasty.
This sense of body language and potential intent in others has grown (by itself) with my tai chi practice over the years.

Cheers,

Giles