Donn Draeger and CMAs

[lee5]

would have been awesome to meet mr draeger ...
and interesting how much that whole crowd personalized everything. I think that's the thing about RS that gets people, he names names and gives his opinion. Always interesting when he avoids a name cause you can usually read between the lines ...

[Bodywork]

would have been awesome to meet mr draeger ...
and interesting how much that whole crowd personalized everything. I think that's the thing about RS that gets people, he names names and gives his opinion. Always interesting when he avoids a name, cause you can usually read between the lines ...

Yes, and in my experience,,omission was a compliment, whether RS intended it to be or not.

[yusuf]

Draeger - "The man could push, I'll give him that. I must have gone twenty feet back . . . but I had a hold of his jacket as I went and I rolled over in a tomoenage and choked him out."

Draeger would choke you out.. heh, thanks for the post Tom

[Ian]

Draeger - "The man could push, I'll give him that. I must have gone twenty feet back . . . but I had a hold of his jacket as I went and I rolled over in a tomoenage and choked him out."

Draeger would choke you out.. heh, thanks for the post Tom

This line made me laugh

[Danny]

[quote="Tom"]http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=272618&postcount=3

I have a difficult time remembering the exact words in Martial Musings, because the man does go on and on and on and on...


Tom,

Was there any particular reason you decided to run Mr. Smith's name through the ringer (again) by digging up this article by Ellis Amdur?

This piece is over six years old now!


Nonetheless, it is interesting in the fact that I also had a simlar conversation in 1983 with Mr. Smith when he was visiting Taipei about his wanting Donn Draeger to meet and push with Prof. Cheng!

Mr. Draeger had passed away the previous year, and Mr. Smith was reminiscing about his old friend. He really had hope that Draeger would be inclined to meet Prof. Cheng simply because Mr. Smith thought that Prof. Cheng would provide Draeger with a somewhat unique perspective on the efficacy of T'ai Chi.

Remember, Mr. Smith knew firsthand about the martial abilities of BOTH of these men, so the fact that he encouraged Draeger to meet Prof. Cheng speaks volumes as to his estimation of Prof. Cheng's ability to handle himself!

But who knows what might have happened? It would have been interesting no matter the outcome!


Regarding Draeger's encounter with Huang Sheng-shyan, it should be pointed out that Huang was not a very big guy at all. He was only about 5'5'' or 5'6", and he MAY have weighed 160 lbs when Draeger met him...(I saw him in Taipei in 1987 and he may have been around 150 lbs then), whereas Draeger was all of 6'2" and between 195 and 215 lbs!

Draeger seems to acknowledge that Huang certainly had some ability in pushing (and Huang had been a fighter of note in his earlier days), and if Draeger had not relied on his Judo skills he may NOT have gotten the best of Huang in that encounter. Unfortunately we don't know whether or not Huang thought this was to be simply a push hands encounter, or something else! Maybe Draeger didn't know either!

Back to the 1983 conversation, Mr. Smith did lament the fact that, even after studying some with Wang Shu-chin in Tokyo, Draeger did not seek out other Chinese martial artists in Taiwan, and instead, only gathered his knowledge of Chinese martial arts from Southeast Asian sources, which Mr. Smith frankly thought were not of the same caliber as the men he knew and trained with in Taiwan. (Mr. Smith had also traveled throughout Southeast Asia and met and visited several martial artists there).

So Tom, it being so close to Father's Day, I think this topic (i.e. Donn Draeger and CMAs) would have been better served if it hadn't started off on such a negative note regarding perhaps the CMA's "father" of some of us, and, no doubt, the CMA's "grandfather" of most of the members on this forum...


In friendship,

Danny

[Andy_S]

If you read "Martial Musings" (I greatly enjoyed it, as I do all Smith's writings, but I know that many people can't stand his meanderings) you will find that Smith is pretty reverential about Draeger, a close friend of his.

His criticms of DD, IIRC, were:
(1) Draeger had tons of personality and a great sense of humour, but this does not come across in his writings. (Having read some of Draeger's prose, I fully agree with this)
(2) Draeger did not think as much of CMC as Smith clearly did. (But then, who does?)

RE: Huang vs DD
Regardless of size, Draeger clearly took advantage of the technique Huang used. The fact that you are not allowed to grab in PH is a real weakness, and one that PH people may, over time, lost the ability to deal with (due to unfamiliarity). I have used sacrifice throws on two or three occassion against a friend of mine who is a very, very good PH person. While he would have won the 'point' in a PM match, in any other format, he would have been at a loss.

RE Wang and Draeger
Pity Draeger did not write about Wang. The best snapshot we have of Wang in Japan is the graf about him in CW Nichol's book. (Nichol was living with Draeger at the time) and that is only the "what" not the "how" of Wang's remarkable power generation. Given this fact (ie that Draeger did not explore Wang in prose) I ask: How much training did Draeger actually do with Wang?

RE: Civilian Fighting Arts
Interesting commment. AFAIK, HsingI, Bagua and Taiji all have military weapons as part of their curriculum and Taiji and HsingI were, historically battlefield arts. What, then, made these arts "civilian?" The fact that they do not teach strategy, tactics, unit formations, etc, as some Japanese Ryu do?

RE: Taiji as a "pseudo fighting art/excercise
A harsh critique, but given Draeger's vast experience, his comment deserves respectful consideration.

[AllanF]

It is an interesting read Tom thank for posting, Agree with Andy that the Taiji as a pseudo fighting art/exercise is a bit harsh. But then if i put my ego to one side and i took a look at 99% of the taiji out there i would have to agree. In fact sometimes it takes someone from outside to point out the elephant in the room!

Also agree that the lack of grabbing in PHs is a problem not because it is better to grab but simply because you need to learn how to deal with grabs both on the flesh and on the cloths. The other day i watched a couple of my teacher's students doing PHs in the park and one of them grabed a couple of times much to the protests of the other then the same guy "used li" again to protests. Personally i think that is total poppy cock, if you want to "use li" or want to grab go ahead if i can't deal with it i simply means my training is lacking and i need to practice more. I told this to my teacher and he agreed 100%, stating that the guy who protested will never understand no matter how long he practices. As my teacher said "If your taiji is only good to defend against people who don't use "li" then it is only good enough to beat up old ladies and babies!"

[AllanF]

Regarding Draeger's encounter with Huang Sheng-shyan, it should be pointed out that Huang was not a very big guy at all. He was only about 5'5'' or 5'6", and he MAY have weighed 160 lbs when Draeger met him...(I saw him in Taipei in 1987 and he may have been around 150 lbs then), whereas Draeger was all of 6'2" and between 195 and 215 lbs!

Hi Danny

In regard to size, it should be noted that people like Chen Fake, Yin Fu ("Thin Yin"), Hong Junsheng (5ft 3"), Sokaku Takeda (under 5ft) were not "big" men yet they had no problems dealing with anyone they encountered...my point is (and taking nothing away from the people mentioned in the the thread) if your gongfu/neigong is real then you should be able to deal with people of a bigger size.

Happy Father's Day
Allan

[cerebus]

Hi Danny

In regard to size, it should be noted that people like Chen Fake, Yin Fu ("Thin Yin"), Hong Junsheng (5ft 3"), Sokaku Takeda (under 5ft) were not "big" men yet they had no problems dealing with anyone they encountered...my point is (and taking nothing away from the people mentioned in the the thread) if your gongfu/neigong is real then you should be able to deal with people of a bigger size.

Happy Father's Day
Allan

Well sure, but if the gong fu of the people they're dealing with is also great AND they're bigger, then of course they'll have tremendous trouble "dealing" with the person in question...

[C.J.Wang]

Regarding the encounter between Huang and DD, since there was no one present who can serve as a witness now, we really don't know for sure exactly what happened. Big-name masters have the tendency to tweak the facts in their favor when it comes to things like this in order to save face.

I remember reading an article about a high-ranking Aikido Shihan who, by the account of two others who witnessed the event, had his butt handed to him in Japan by WSJ. But during an interview, the said Shihan cliamed that Wang only managed to push him away after he broke Wang's wrist, and that the result was a tie.

What I do know for a fact is that, in the 1955 Kuoshu tournament held in Taiwan, Huang challenged the winner of the Sanshou division Chang Yin-Jian (Cha Chan/SC expert) as the torunament's PH champion and was thrown down twice during the first round. So is it possible that Huang only knew how to push and got thrown and choked out by DD? Sure. But whether it did happen or not is anybody's guess.

[Daniel]

Yes...if we gathered all the stories the collected members of RSF have it would make one hefty tome. Martial Musings would be a very semantically correct name, too.

Anyway. Some vids of the late Mr Draeger, for those who don´t know that they´re on Youtube.








The first one is a documentary, and there is narrated information about Mr Draeger but my Japanese isn´t good enough to get all of it. Probably more interesting to those who are fluent. There is a part II as well.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Andy_S]

CJ:

I think I have that interview by Chiba, it was in Fighting Arts International. IIRC, a couple of Chiba's students were training with Wang who they praised. Chiba went with them to see him. Wang demoed being punched in his(significant) gut: Chiba was unimpressed. Wang offered Chiba his wrist, so Chiba immediately put a lock on him, as hard as he could. Wang's wrist ground (Chiba did not say he broke his wrist) and he immediately pulled out of the lock and shoved Chiba away: Chiba went flying. Then Chiba's students came between them and that was that. But in the interview, Chiba was very respectful of Wang, saying he had an awesome push.

Dan may have something to add on this:IIRC, he knew/knows Chiba and has commented on this before, IIRC.

[RobT]

The chiba - WSJ meeting... both versions

http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=3730

[Bodywork]

Andy
FWIW, Chiba did most certainly "imply" that he broke Wangs wrist with "the loud popping" comment. And incedently when asked again years leter he demured from any comment.
Chiba aint got much to brag about even now...after all his years of development-Then, he must have been nothing but a shadow to Wang. Of the people there, I hear they were disgusted when Chiba's ego would not allow him to acknowlege when he was in the presence of a much better artist, and they wrote him off entirely after his boasts were of a completely different story.

This is the post on the Aikido Journal site:

Daniel Harden writes:
________________________________________________________

The previous link leads to this interview and Ellis’s response FWIW.

David Williams Sent:

Excerpt of interview with Chiba Kazuo, 8th-dan Aikido instructor

Q: With friends like that who needs

enemies! As we are talking about

challenges would you mind telling

me about your confrontation with Mr

Wang, the Tai Chi Master from China?

Chiba:

Who told you about this … Mr Cottier perhaps?

Q: Perhaps I’d better not tell …

Chiba: (Laughter) O.K. then. I was in a big demonstration of Martial Arts

in Tokyo in the early 1960’s, and Tai Chi Chuan was being shown by Mr Wang. He was from Taiwan and he was very big indeed. He became quite famous later in Japan. Well, at the end of his display he had a number of Karateka line up in front of him, and each of them punched him in the belly. It had no effect on him. I was not impressed. I would have done something else (Sensei demonstrated a groin kick and face punch whilst saying this). So, anyway two of my private students were also studying Tai Chi under Mr Wang, and they were very impressed with him. They invited me to come along and see him. Eventually I accepted and went to watch his class. At the dojo my students introduced us, and he politely asked me to show some Aikido. Even though his words were warm it was still a challenge! Well, we faced each other, and Master Wang made something like Sumo posture with his hands outstretched. I stood and waited for an opening. This went on for some minutes until he moved forward to push me. So I met him, made Tai Sabaki (body evasion) and took his wrist with Kote Gaeshi, (wrist crush/reversal) … his wrist made a loud snapping noise as I applied it. Even though I applied Kote Gaeshi strongly and injured him, he did not go down. Master Wang snatched his wrist from me, and challenged me immediately. So this time he pushed me with both hands in the belly, and threw me quite a distance across the room. I landed, but I also did not go down. It was an amazing throw. My students then came between us, and that was that.

***********End Chiba’s version of events****************

Ellis responds

I will quote the story that Terry Dobson told me, which was corroborated at another time by Donn Draeger. I also heard Terry tell this story again in a group with Mitsugi Saotome present, who amidst laughter chimed in and agreed. I didn’t know that Ken Cottier was present but he was also part of the group.

First, some context. Wang Shu Chin, for those who don’t know, was primarily a Pa Kua, Hsing I teacher, who also trained many years in I Ch’uan. He was a massive man, fat over heavy muscle, in his prime, about 5’6” and about 260 lb, I’d guess. He also did t’ai chi, the syncretic form

created by Chen Pan Ling, which he did in a very different manner from Chen (this form is, these days, often called the Guo Shu form, the “national form” of Taiwan). Wang was the head of a neo-Taoist sect, which strove to harmonize the major religions of the world.

As always, there are debates about how strong he really was, I studied with him only two months when he was months away from death from melanoma. I witnessed him knock over a very muscular kyoshinkai champion with a side-step and belly blow, but that was a a controlled situation, not

free-style. Still, really impressive power, despite his illness. For me, one of the most interesting measurements of his “power” was that when I travelled in Taiwan, every teacher who was talking big and trying to impress with his credentials claimed to have beaten Wang.

Anyway, Wang originally came over to Japan in the ‘60’s, first to teach his son-in-law, who had married his adopted daughter. Among the first to study with him was Sato Kimbei. Sato, among koryu circles, was generally

considered a joke. He collected scrolls and licenses. Otsubo sensei, of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, told in a very public forum, of Sato approaching him, asking how long it would take to get a menkyo kaiden and when Otsubo

was noncommittal, trying to bargain with him. Otsubo allowed him to train with him and w/in two months, Sato was nowhere to be found, but years

later, he was claiming licensure in the school. Anyway, Sato hooked up

with Wang for some years, and this did give him legitimate claim to being

one of the “pioneers” of Japanese t’ai chi.

Wang used to ask a former student of Sato’s to demonstrate what Sato taught, and he and his son-in-law would pick it apart, laughing and asking him to repeat cerain moves over and over. I also happened to be present at a workshop when the head of the Bejing wushu society, (forgot his name -

the guy who put together the 48 movement syncretic t’ai chi form) and another practitioner, who has won the Yang t’ai chi competition several years running and Sato came up and told them that they weren’t allowed to teach because they hadn’t asked his permission, and they looked at him like

you look at a deranged street person asking to borrow your briefcase, and walked away shaking their heads. Sato did nothing, and left with his wife shortly after. Sato is currently claimed as a senior infuence on the Genbukan and Tanemura - - -Oh well.

Wang started teaching in the grounds of Meiji shrine, and somewhere along the line a group of non-Japanese around Donn Draeger started training with him. Draeger learned some pa-kua, Wang would also show some Hsing I, but

mostly he taught t’ai chi. Among this group was Terry Dobson, who was a live-in student of Morihei Ueshiba of aikido. Terry’s direct senior was Chiba. Wang was doing demos in Japanese martial arts demonstrations and as

Ken Cottier put it, “here you’d have all these startched Japanese in their crisp kiekko gi and their crisp snappy movements and then out would come this fat Chinaman in grey flannel slacks and suspenders and he’d start doing impossible slow t’ai chi and he’d turn around and this ass as big as the moon would waft across the stage and then he’d challenge all comers to have a go at him and the young karate boys would be rabid and he’d let them punch his stomach or kick him in the groin and he’d just laugh it off but heaven help you if you tried to punch his head. He made it clear that that was out of bounds, and if you broke the rules, then he’d become, shall we say, active.”

Terry stated to me, (I’m quoting as best as I can remember) “the uchi-deshi at honbu, particularly Chiba, started giving me a raft of shit that I was being disloyal to O-sensei by studying with Wang, and I asked O-sensei, and

he said, ‘sure, do what you want’ but they wouldn’t let up so I said, “why don’t you come and check him out for yourself.” So Draeger and me took Chiba, Saotome and Tamura. Well, we walked in, and Wang scopes out Chiba

right away, like he knows who has the attitude here, takes one look, and says, ‘come here boy.’ Seriously, Wang’s over sixty, paid lots of dues, is a religious leader and all, and here comes these punks, as far as he’s concerned, in their twenties, copping an attitude. So Wang lets Chiba

punch him in the stomach. Nothing. Chiba tries again. Nothing. Well, now Chiba loses his temper, half turns away, and then tries to sucker punch him, thinking it’s timing. This time Wang sucks the fist into his belly

and then drops, he gives it back, Chiba’s arm goes shooting back behind his ear, and he’s shaking his wrist in pain. Wang then let Chiba kick him in the groin. Nothing. So Chiba loses it, grabs Wang’s wrist and puts a nikkyo or kote-gaeshi on it, some wrist lock. I don’t know what Wang did, it was too fast, but Chiba slams on the floor and Wang’s doing something to him with one hand and he’s screaming in pain. Finally Wang lets him up and

says, “You’ve got a little chi, why don’t you come back when you acquire more?” Then he turns to Tamura and Saotome, who were standing there with their backs against the wall, and says, “you want to try.” They both shake

their heads and we all went home. They never gave me shit about Wang again… . Far as I’m concerned, Chiba lost his chance at salvation right there. He should have quit everything and sat at Wang’s feet.”

The story that Dobson tells is quite congruent with my own experience with Chiba. When he first returned to Japan in 1976, I think it was, I took his classes for several months. For whatever it is worth, I was the first

person he threw in the first class he taught. It’s relevant for this reasib. He comes in the room, substituting for Tada, and picks the biggest

guy in the room - me. It’s like he wants to make an initial impression on everyone. First throw is shihonage, and he very deliberately bridged my elbow over his shoulder and tries to snap it. No ambiguity at all. Not a mistake. He was deliberately trying to hurt me. I had previously been

warned about him and was in the air the moment the throw started, yet the elbow did momentarity slip out of the socket and back in with an audible click. I hit the ground and came back up for the next move (jeez, I was a loyal puppy in those days) and Chiba got the same look on his face that you see when someone’s slinking out of the porno shop with a back of goodies under his arm, and then he sees I’m not on the ground, or nursing the arm, and he starts in surprise, like he’s been caught at something dirty, and

then covers it up. Never tried to hurt me again, seemed to like me after that like I passed some sick test - lest some loyal students think I’m reading too much into this, I deal with psychopaths on a daily basis for a living, and I know that look. So I’m inclined to believe Dobson and

Draeger over Chiba’s interview.

Best

Ellis Amdur

I'll only add that I heard the same version directly from Ellis, and I also heard it from a different source as well.
Chiba was an abuser. I have said publicly that were I to be in the same room with that litte twerp again, I would remind him of our last encounter fifteen years ago..where he landed on his ass after ruining a friend of mines elbow, and I would do it in a heartbeat. I was escorted out of that seminar at the time, but would not let that happen now. I am not as nice as Ellis.
In fairness to him I should offer this:
I teach one of his students (himself a teacher and ranger) He tells me Chiba has changed. He has supposedly found religion, and has issued a written, public apology to a host of dojos for his prior behaviour. I suppose we have to allow for people to grow...as they so often do as they age.

[everything]

Having only read RS's book I've already judged him to be an egotistical idiot. Sorry. Also he calls Bruce lee an "actor" where many good fighters proven in modern arenas such as k-1, pride, and ufc, consider him godfather of mma. So piss off, RS. Pretty sure he insults chuck norris, Randy couture, chuck lid dell, and rampage as actors. Then he disses Jason Bourne and Jack Bauer as mere civilian wannabes. And even fedor, calling him some overweight dough boy Russian punk. So yeah fuck off. If all that is true about Chiba he deserves a beating by mma types. Only thing worse than putdowns like in rs's book is aikido idiots who just have wrist locks. But happy f day.