Donn Draeger and CMAs

[AllanF]

Hi Danny

In regard to size, it should be noted that people like Chen Fake, Yin Fu ("Thin Yin"), Hong Junsheng (5ft 3"), Sokaku Takeda (under 5ft) were not "big" men yet they had no problems dealing with anyone they encountered...my point is (and taking nothing away from the people mentioned in the the thread) if your gongfu/neigong is real then you should be able to deal with people of a bigger size.

Happy Father's Day
Allan

Well sure, but if the gong fu of the people they're dealing with is also great AND they're bigger, then of course they'll have tremendous trouble "dealing" with the person in question...

I perhaps wasn't clear enough i meant speaking generally rather than getting involved with any politics with the people mentioned. That doesn't interest me at all. I will say this that The people i mentioned did take all challenges and against MAist with ability. And i would add that Sagawa Yukiyoshi took challenges against accomplished Judo men and Chen Fake was involved in a bandit attack (Red Spear Army?) on his home in which he killed a man said to be the leader of the group.

Interesting stories about Wang and Chiba, to be honest i don't know much about Wang so if anyone has more info on him i would be delighted to hear about it.

Allan

[Frazetta]

In regard to size, it should be noted that people like Chen Fake, Yin Fu ("Thin Yin"), Hong Junsheng (5ft 3"), Sokaku Takeda (under 5ft) were not "big" men yet they had no problems dealing with anyone they encountered...my point is (and taking nothing away from the people mentioned in the the thread) if your gongfu/neigong is real then you should be able to deal with people of a bigger size. Happy Father's Day
Allan

+1
If size is that big an intimidation factor for someone, then they should train that much harder.

[Danny]

hi Danny--

Stories are told on this and other forums that are centuries old. Six years isn't anything.

Robert W. Smith chose to publish his opinions. Some will like them, others will disagree, and still others won't care at all.
Fortunately or unfortunately, Mr.Smith's thoughts are out there and online and there is no taking them back.

I've been engaged in some personal research comparing Chinese and Japanese training methods in certain arts. In perusing through some notes and materials I've collected, I came across Mr. Amdur's reminiscence/opinion piece again. I also had a cup of coffee with an old friend of Mr. Draeger, and he confirmed details of Draeger's interactions with Wang Shujin and his interest in CIMAs . . . an interest that was not solely due to his friendship with Robert W. Smith. We have a number of folks on this forum who are interested in both JMAs and CMAs, and Mr. Draeger's experiences are quite relevant for them.

Finally, as to any perceived negativity of the piece towards Mr. Smith . . . well, if the piece had not been posted, then you would not have responded in such considerable detail . . . with thoughts and information that are much appreciated.

So thanks, Danny. And if you're a dad . . . Happy Father's Day to you, sir.

cheers,

Tom[/quote]

Tom,

It just seems that this discussion on Donn Draeger and the Chinese Martial Arts could have begun on a much more positive note rather than with the somewhat provocative statements you found from Ellis...but everyone is indeed entitled to their own opinions...

However, I'm not sure where Ellis may have gotten his somewhat skewed opinions on Mr. Smith (and I’d be curious to hear from him on this), but I honestly don't think they came from Donn Draeger!


Now regarding Draeger, besides, of course, hearing about him from his friend Robert Smith over the years, one of my oldest friends in the martial arts that I met in Taiwan in the 80’s had been a Shotokan (Kenkojuku) Karateka living in Tokyo in the late 60’s and early 70’s, and he also knew Draeger then.…

He’s told me how kind Draeger was to him, and how Draeger would go out of his way to help in any way he could. Draeger even opened the doors to other Japanese martial arts to him by introducing my friend to Shioda’s Yoshinkan Aikido at the Tokyo Police Academy, and to an Iaido sensei (whose name and Ryu-ha escapes me at the moment).


I also know a student of Draeger’s who was part of his Hawaii group in the late 70’s early 80’s. He tells a somewhat poignant story of Draeger’s last days and how he fought the cancer that killed him without a word of complaint, nor of admitting any resignation or submission to it!


Finally, for more than 10 years now, I have worked out weekly with a gentleman who not only knew Draeger in Japan in the 60’s and 70’s, but who was also the manuscript editor of Draegers book, “Weapons and Fighting Arts of the Indonesian Archipelago” (Rutland and Tokyo: Charles E. Tuttle, 1972). You’ll find his name in the acknowledgements.

Over the years he’s shared some great stories and memories of Draeger, and has some unique insights into Draeger’s views on martial arts.

I’ll see him tomorrow, and so I’ll ask if he can add any more to this discussion on Draeger’s views of Chinese martial arts that he may have picked up on over the years he knew him…


And also Tom, as a matter of fact, I am a Dad,…with a married son who trains primarily in BJJ, and a daughter who is in Beijing at the moment studying at Tsinghua University!

So “Thanks” for the Father’s Day wishes!

Danny

[Danny]

Regarding Draeger's encounter with Huang Sheng-shyan, it should be pointed out that Huang was not a very big guy at all. He was only about 5'5'' or 5'6", and he MAY have weighed 160 lbs when Draeger met him...(I saw him in Taipei in 1987 and he may have been around 150 lbs then), whereas Draeger was all of 6'2" and between 195 and 215 lbs!

Hi Danny

In regard to size, it should be noted that people like Chen Fake, Yin Fu ("Thin Yin"), Hong Junsheng (5ft 3"), Sokaku Takeda (under 5ft) were not "big" men yet they had no problems dealing with anyone they encountered...my point is (and taking nothing away from the people mentioned in the the thread) if your gongfu/neigong is real then you should be able to deal with people of a bigger size.

Happy Father's Day
Allan

Hello Allan,

This holds true for Cheng Man-ch’ing too, who was not much more than 5’3’’or 5’4’’ and maybe 140 lbs at his heaviest. Yet, he could, by most accounts, handle anyone of any size…

My main point, I guess, is that, even in Ellis’ account, and despite their differences in size and weight (and, I should also add age, in that, Huang was 12 years older than Draeger), Draeger seems to give Huang his due as a fairly powerful push hands guy when he said:

“Draeger - "The man could push, I'll give him that. I must have gone twenty feet back . . .”

I don’t think that Draeger would ever exaggerate the martial abilities of anyone he crossed hands with… rather, I would think that he was telling Ellis his honest opinion of what he thought of Huang’s push hands skill…

But also, from what I’ve learned about Donn Draeger from various sources over the years and by guys who knew him fairly well, I don’t think that there was anyone on the planet who could really best him in a one-on-one!

And Thanks for the Father's Day wishes!

Danny

[Bodywork]

This is a better link. I don't know why, but I had to use the search feature from Tom's link

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/681

I hope that overall everyone realizes that Donn was a giant in the Martial art world, and this thread remains respectful. There is a tendency to try to "bust" legends among the younger crowd of wannabes. Donn is beyond that. Everyone I know who actually knew him and trained with him- paints the same picture; that he was always respectful and a student of many culture's arts. This research led him to creating a new and accredited discipline called hoplology; a study of how a culture and it's budo were entwined.

In the process he personaly developed skills that would satisfy any criteria you wished to name; scholar, researcher, true Mixed Martial Artist to gigantic proportions; Military, civilian, hand-to-hand, weapons of all kinds from guns, to spears, to swords, to stick, to knife, an accomplished sport grappler, he went on to become a master (and here the word is to be taken literally) of classical or traditional training in some of Japan’s finest samurai disciplines, a contemporary of the finest men, and friend to some real brawlers who also were trying out their skills in street fights. By every account he was of the highest character and set demanding standards of everyone around him, by the standards he set for himself.
The man I know who was a close friend to him, has many of his effects, and brought him back home to be buried considers Donn to be unapproachable in skill. That everyone who made contact with him walked in his shadow. I will offer an example of one of the finest tributes I can give. To help it relate to a Chinese art audience you will have to help.
Pick a Chinese master that you would all agree was an absolute giant in the ICMA, who combined the EMA and IMA and fought with it. Now picture what kind of effect it would have on you if you went there to the training hall to train you saw an austere place, with no pictures, and no fan fair, just a quiet place made to work in, and when you walked into the changing room; there was a very large picture on the wall, of an American. Would that speak to you at all?

In Japan there is widely recognized master of the Japanese arts, itself the oldest of the unbroken Samurai traditions aprox. 600 yrs old. Its current head teacher is himself unapproachable in both character and skill; people come from all over the world to train with him. The dojo is humble and unadorned, highly traditional in every way. You have to understand that most who go there are in many ways a bit in awe when they arrive. Once there your experience is more or less divided. If you are an invited visiter, you sit and watch some practice or a demonstration and that is that. Were you of the few who are students of the art- you have a different experience. After you bow-in to a very traditional kamiza, you go to the changing rooms. There, (unseen by all except for members of the ryu) as you part the curtain, staring you in the face as if he is overseeing all...is a large formal portrait of Donn Draeger. You cannot train there without be reminded that you are following in the footsteps of one of the greatest Martial minds and practioners of the modern era. The fact that it is there in the first place...says everything that need be said.

[C.J.Wang]

For the record, CMC was never considered a formidabble fighter in Taiwan except by his students and followers. (In fact, there were many who doubted his fighting skills.) He was kind of a "mob boss" due to his close ties with Chiang Kai-Shek and Chiang's wife Madame Song. In those days if you had that kind of connection, nobody dared to touch/challenge you.

[Daniel]

For the record, CMC was never considered a formidabble fighter in Taiwan except by his students and followers. (In fact, there were many who doubted his fighting skills.) He was kind of a "mob boss" due to his close ties with Chiang Kai-Shek and Chiang's wife Madame Song. In those days if you had that kind of connection, nobody dared to touch/challenge you.

I have heard the same, and from several sources.

But just a sidebar question to the WSJ/Chiba thing. Is there really people who see this as a genuine contest of fighting skill? It was a dead hand set up. If WSJ was allowed to use the whole arsenal of power and techniques he had, that would have changed the situation considerably. Same is likely if Mr Draeger had been allowed to use all his skills vs Huang. Both situations are only a version of the different testing levels used before full combat in some CMA/IMA.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Baguaplayer]

I have heard previously by some ma's in the know that the Professor couldn't fight and that he was too small, etc.

But it is really annoying that those who have drank the Kool Aid that he took all challengers, yet no one can document ANY fights by him.

[Walter Joyce]

I have heard previously by some ma's in the know that the Professor couldn't fight and that he was too small, etc.

But it is really annoying that those who have drank the Kool Aid that he took all challengers, yet no one can document ANY fights by him.

+1

[Andy_S]

Dan:

SNIP
FWIW, Chiba did most certainly "imply" that he broke Wangs wrist with "the loud popping" comment.
SNIP

Well, one can read into it what one wishes; joints make popping and cracking sounds just when stretching or getting out of bed in the morning, I think if Chiba meant to say that he broke Wang's wrist, he would have said, "I broke his wrist."

But if Chiba is implying:
(1) He broke Wang's wrist;
(2) Then was immediately challenged by Wang and shoved the length of the dojo regardless of that rather serious injury;
It would read (to me) as an EXTREMELY positive comment by Chiba on Wang's pain tolerance, courage, determination and ability to fight while injured - ie just the kind of attributes the more militaristic Japanese would have esteemed.