Lian quan bu lian gong... what does it mean to you?

[bruce]

[quote="Haoran"]

Anyway, I still don't get the "Combat only" mentality. Chinese Martial arts should encompass healing and martial arts. Yin and Yang in combination. And Qi should be included because Qi is healing.

[quote]
martial art = combat only. health is a side effect of martial art not the goal of martial art in my opinion.

if you want good health eat good food and run etc ...

[Haoran]

martial art = combat only. health is a side effect of martial art not the goal of martial art in my opinion.

if you want good health eat good food and run etc ...

Sorry, I respectfully disagree.

[D_Glenn]

martial art = combat only. health is a side effect of martial art not the goal of martial art in my opinion.

if you want good health eat good food and run etc ...

Sorry, I respectfully disagree.

+1

As my teacher had said, when he was younger he 'broke down' a lot of schools and he also followed a Yin style tradition of intentionally not accepting the students of the beaten teacher. He said this obviously bred a lot of contempt for himself and basically painted a target on his back. He essentially can't go anywhere without constantly looking over his shoulder as in China it doesn't matter how you are beaten, it only matters that you are lying on the ground and obviously lost, so sneaking up behind someone and hitting them in the back of the head is fair game. Getting a common cold or the flu is a sure way of not being able to defend yourself. In his case walking to the store when sick to get medicine is a possible disaster if he gets jumped that day.

So not getting sick is a key aspect of the practices and more in the manner that the practices are done. In the case of circle walking though you stop getting sick so soon in the practice that you don't have to think about and if you do get sick the teacher knows you aren't practicing.

***

Haoran,

It depends on the posture, chuan zhang there is no real twisting but it's also actually a soft posture, the others though have extreme twisting usually the forearm twists one direction, the bicep twists opposite, and the shoulder twists opposite that, the back arm opposite the front.

.

[johnwang]

if you want good health eat good food and run etc ...

I'm a strong believer in running. I run 4 miles 3 times a week rain or shine. I find it help my CMA training a great deal. IMO, running, set up, push up, good food, less sex, happy, positive attitude, ... are all good for health.

[GrahamB]

I gotta get me some good foot!

[Chris McKinley]

Too many people living in their own personal kung fu movies.

[bruce]

martial art = combat only. health is a side effect of martial art not the goal of martial art in my opinion.

if you want good health eat good food and run etc ...

Sorry, I respectfully disagree.

if you disagree can you answers the following?
why were "martial arts developed?

what was their original purpose?

for example say your martial art has a sword form. is that sword not meant to mame or kill a person? what does this have to do with your health other than preventing another person from attacking/hurting you? now think about this as a side effect of practicing the "sword martial art" you have infact increased your health.
they go hand in hand...

i think this is a pretty good description.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_arts
>>Martial arts or fighting arts are systems of codified practices and traditions of Combat. Martial arts all have a very similar objective: defend oneself or others from physical threat. In addition, some martial arts are linked to beliefs such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Daoism, Confucianism or Shinto while others follow a particular code of honor. Martial arts are considered as both an art and a science. Many arts are also practiced competitively, most commonly as combat sports, but may also take the form of dance.
The term martial arts refers to the art of warfare (derived from Mars/Ares the Greek god of war) and comes from a 15th-century European term referring to what are now known as historical European martial arts. A practitioner of martial arts is referred to as a martial artist. As the word 'Martial' refers to a specific person ( though mythological )and as such 'Martial' should be capitalized; if, the word 'Martial' is being used as originally intended. However, if the word "martial" is being used to describe fighting arts in general terms, then writing 'martial' in the lower case is appropriate.
When originally coined in the 1920s, the term martial arts referred specifically to Asian fighting styles, especially the combat systems that originated in East Asia. However, the term both in its literal meaning and in its subsequent usage may be taken to refer to any codified combat system, regardless of origin. For example, Europe is home to many extensive systems of fighting, both living traditions that have existed through the present and others which are now being reconstructed. In the Americas, Native Americans have traditions of open-handed martial arts such as wrestling, while Hawaiians have historically practiced arts featuring small and large-joint manipulation. A mix of origins is found in the athletic movements of Capoeira, which African slaves developed in Brazil based on skills they had brought from Africa.
While each style has unique facets that differentiate it from other martial arts, a common characteristic is the systematization of fighting techniques. Methods of training vary and may include sparring (simulated combat) or formal sets or routines of techniques known as forms or kata. Forms are especially common in the Asian and Asian-derived martial arts.[1]<<

i do not think it was as a "health" regimen unless by health you mean keeping yourself safe from attack.

[bruce]

martial art = combat only. health is a side effect of martial art not the goal of martial art in my opinion.

if you want good health eat good food and run etc ...

Sorry, I respectfully disagree.

+1

As my teacher had said, when he was younger he 'broke down' a lot of schools and he also followed a Yin style tradition of intentionally not accepting the students of the beaten teacher. He said this obviously bred a lot of contempt for himself and basically painted a target on his back. He essentially can't go anywhere without constantly looking over his shoulder as in China it doesn't matter how you are beaten, it only matters that you are lying on the ground and obviously lost, so sneaking up behind someone and hitting them in the back of the head is fair game. Getting a common cold or the flu is a sure way of not being able to defend yourself. In his case walking to the store when sick to get medicine is a possible disaster if he gets jumped that day.

So not getting sick is a key aspect of the practices and more in the manner that the practices are done. In the case of circle walking though you stop getting sick so soon in the practice that you don't have to think about and if you do get sick the teacher knows you aren't practicing.

***

Haoran,

It depends on the posture, chuan zhang there is no real twisting but it's also actually a soft posture, the others though have extreme twisting usually the forearm twists one direction, the bicep twists opposite, and the shoulder twists opposite that, the back arm opposite the front.

.

from your description his problems developed as a result of his misuse of martial arts in going out and beating people up etc ... he set himself up for the need to look over his shoulder by his own actions as far as i can tell from your above post. this has nothing to do with defining martial art as "health" or "combat".

[D_Glenn]

Every military and martial culture has to deal with the constant health of soldiers and injury sustained during combat. With the CMAs though the link of the military/ martial/ and medical goes back as far as we can research. The difference though is that TCM and Daoyin practices are based on the wholistic body of the individual and not the group. Mei Hua Zhuang is just one of the original arts that so many younger styles came from and the medical/ health practices were already built into that martial art and these same practices later adapted into other styles. We in the western world may call this an emphasis on 'conditioning', but in China it's all a form of 導引 Daoyin.

***

Bruce, On that he also said he may have been a little 'young and dumb', but if he could go back in time and not break down the schools, he said 'ahh probably not, it's forced him to become a better martial artist, and was ultimately worth it.' He's not the only one who was going around doing this it's a common thing more so probably in the 80's but there is still a lot of fighting in the younger generations. He feels that our method has always been a 'fair' style and only uses 'clean' techniques. Apparently there's some really cruel Xingyiquan schools that they run into - (piquan to yintang point or break the bridge of the nose to get them in a daze, then an unanswered hengquan or similar to the jaw). And actually without a large number of students our style was not even really a school. We are more like a small fish in a big pond. So either way he would have had to defend himself. On the plus side he said because he'd made such a reputation for himself he was able to skip the generational gap and actually started getting invited to have tea with the Grand-teachers of some of the people he fought, then they would introduce them to another friend and so on. He spent almost every weekend traveling around and meeting old martial artists of every style, learning their stories, getting training tips, and sharing techniques. He's the virtual 'who's who' of the Chinese Martial arts scene. Down at a seminar in NM this guy had almost all the issues of pakua journal and we flipped through em, he knew almost everybody in them. (Good times). If you can speak Chinese and are interested in CMA history then he's the man to befriend and ask.


.

[johnwang]

There is nothing wrong to use CMA for "performance", "health", and "spiritual development". But there is nothing wrong to use CMA for "combat" only either. The problem that we have today is 99% of the CMA guys treat CMA as "performance", "health", and "spiritual development" only. The problem that we have today is that we don't have enough people who treat CMA as a serious "combat" art. The day when all the earth population train CMA for "combat", I'll step out and said, "CMA is also good for performance, health, and spiritual development". IMO, that day hasn't come yet.

The day that we can use CMA to beat up MMA guys, the day that we will say, "CMA is not only for fighting". Until then, we may need to concentrate a bit more on the "combat" side.

[internalenthusiast]

The problem that we have today is that we don't have enough people who treat CMA as a serious "combat" art. The day when all the earth population train CMA for "combat", I'll step out and said, "CMA is also good for performance, health, and spiritual development". IMO, that day hasn't come yet.

The day that we can use CMA to beat up MMA guys, the day that we will say, "CMA is not only for fighting". Until then, we may need to concentrate a bit more on the "combat" side.

very clear statement, IMO.

though, in honesty, i do use CMA for personal development...as well.

there's a good argument, IMO, for having a "personal practice", which serves as an "anchor" for all kinds of things in life.

but none of this violates what john is saying, IMO. otherwise, the "personal practice" might be yoga, meditation or (simply) these other things.

one thing that i like: how can you control someone else (or, alternatively manage effectively, a situation, even if you cannot control the other's actions), if you cannot control yourself. i am working on this (as the implications extend to all parts of life). it's a life long study, IME.

best...

[C.J.Wang]

The problem with CMA is that while its focus might have been purely on fighting in the beginning, over the centuries it has also become (too) deeply rooted in other aspects of Chinese culture. As the need for combat is overshadowed by that of spiritual/health/performance development, the majority of CMA practitioners are naturally going to be hobbiests who go to their CMA class two three times a week to learn pretty forms and are under the false impression that they can kick butts.

MMA, on the other hand, is born as a specific ring-fighting contact sport, so people who train in it are mostly young, dedicated athletes who like to fight and wouldn't mind spending hours at the gym each day doing hard conditioning/sparring practice.

If CMA community manages to find a group of robust youngsters and train them specifically for MMA fighting by incoporating both traditional/modern methods and techniques of CMA, I believe in a few years they'd be able give MMAists a run for their money.

[Haoran]

I have no problem with John's statement. Makes sense from that perspective. What annoys me is the "gong" that seems no longer to be in many arts. Training a certain way for a certain life long result (iron palm, iron body, etc). If my bagua didn't have circle walking (a gong) I don't care how many forms he showed me I still wouldn't want to train in it.