Lian quan bu lian gong... what does it mean to you?

[DeusTrismegistus]

Besides the fact that without 'Qi' you would be dead.

There comes a point where everyone will no longer have the physical ability to train their 'gong'. They can only preserve their tendon strength.

And they have no real ability to cultivate 精 'Jing' and 氣 'Qi'. (They need to do that throughout their life alongside the 'gong' training.) They can only try to conserve it at this point.

But if they did train correctly (Quan + Gong + Qi) then the practices can focus on the 神 'shen' aspect of the martial art.



I've met quite a few of the bigger name people in the CIMA world, including you John, and I don't know if you are joking or not but only speaking of the feeling or maybe the constitution of everyone's body I do have to say that it did feel that you don't train with any regard to 'qi'. Your body seems like an old hardened tree, while everyone else has a ton of flesh surrounding the bones and they have a feeling of a young springy sapling. Chen Xiao Wang is at least 65 or older and he's as healthy as any 20 year old.

I think you have amazing knowledge of, and skills in Shuai Jiao but it makes me sad to think that you aren't a bit more concerned with your internal health.

Do you believe in acupuncture?





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I think John's point wasn't that you continue training your Gong, ability, into old age but that the Gong training doesn't leave you. My 5'7" 77 year old grandpa can still open animal traps with his bare hands that I have to step on to press the spring down enough to open and I am pretty strong and much bigger. He doesn't train that, it just doesn't leave.

[johnwang]

精 'Jing', 氣 'Qi', and 神 'shen' are something that you obtain from your training. It's not something that you can obtain from talking. Besides I don't think we should always try to link Qi, health, spiritual development into a combat discussion.

- If you like to talk about it, you may try to get it but you haven't gotten it yet.
- If you already got it, you no longer need to talk about it.

You will never heard any Judoka talks about Sung, yield, sticky, follow, ... To those Judoka, those are their bread and butter and there is nothing worthwhile to talk about it.

[shawnsegler]

If you like to talk about it, you may try to get it but you haven't gotten it yet.
- If you already got it, you no longer need to talk about it.

qft

[johnwang]

without 'Qi' you would be dead...Do you believe in acupuncture?

I know this is an internal CMA forum, but we don't need to bring Qi into all our discussion. I can bring fancy words such as 小周天(Xiao Zhou Tian), 大周天(Da Zhou Tian), 任脈(Ren Mai), 都脈(Dou Mai), ... in all our discussion. It may just confuse people and bring the discussion into an abstract level. I don't see that will be able to help our combat skill development at all.

I can't say that I believe in acupuncture. I had jumped down from a 20 feet height ski lift because one of my ski fell off. The height should not be my problem but I didn't realize that I had my hard ski boots on. The landing shock my left leg and cause a lot of pain. I had spent 2 years in acupuncture but it did not help. It was my long distance running that gradually bring my left leg back to normal. People said that if you run (or walk) 8 miles, the 1st 4 miles, your body can detect all your problems. in the 2nd 4 miles, your body will heal your problems for you.

Again, the following statement is just one of my new jokes (it's similar to my old joke, "if you think, ... you may not ..."). I love this kind of jokes. It makes me feel "smart" and "deep".

- If you like to talk about it, you may try to get it but you haven't gotten it yet.
- If you already got it, you no longer need to talk about it.

[D_Glenn]

John,

It's a shame you had bad experiences with acupuncture, you should know though that there is so much more to it than treating injury and pain relief, needling energy points and tonic herbal formulas are where it really aids the martial arts...


***

"- If you like to talk about it, you may try to get it but you haven't gotten it yet.
- If you already got it, you no longer need to talk about it."


-If you think you have it, but other people can't feel it, then you probably haven't gotten it yet.
-If you already got it, then people will be able to immediately feel it.



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[Haoran]

I know this is an internal CMA forum, but we don't need to bring Qi into all our discussion. I can bring fancy words such as 小周天(Xiao Zhou Tian), 大周天(Da Zhou Tian), 任脈(Ren Mai), 都脈(Dou Mai), ... I don't see that will be able to help our combat skill development at all.

督脈, 不是都脈

Anyway, I still don't get the "Combat only" mentality. Chinese Martial arts should encompass healing and martial arts. Yin and Yang in combination. And Qi should be included because Qi is healing.

I can't say that I believe in acupuncture. I had jumped down from a 20 feet height ski lift because one of my ski fell off. The height should not be my problem but I didn't realize that I had my hard ski boots on. The landing shock my left leg and cause a lot of pain. I had spent 2 years in acupuncture but it did not help. It was my long distance running that gradually bring my left leg back to normal. People said that if you run (or walk) 8 miles, the 1st 4 miles, your body can detect all your problems. in the 2nd 4 miles, your body will heal your problems for you.

First, I like the walking comment. In the US it would solve many of the country's problems if everyone did walk. When I was in China I walked every day. Here I walk to my car and from my car to the store. In China you're force to walk and I really enjoyed it. (of course I walk in a circle) Also, walking in some places in the US will get you killed.

Second, I've had mixed results with Acupunture, herbs, and massage. Qigong, IMO, is far superior if the individual is up to doing it. Most won't. I'm big on Qigong and firmly feel it should be a large part of one's daily practice. So, I'm with D_Glenn on this.

[edededed]

I think that acupuncture is like many other medical/body practices, i.e., the effects really depend on the skill of the practitioner (which is a facet of the practice that is not effectively tested in the various "scientific trials" in my opinion - I mean, if you test the effects of massage and I am the (unqualified and unskilled) masseuse, will the test have any meaning?).

[D_Glenn]

Anyway, I still don't get the "Combat only" mentality. Chinese Martial arts should encompass healing and martial arts. Yin and Yang in combination. And Qi should be included because Qi is healing.

First, I like the walking comment. In the US it would solve many of the country's problems if everyone did walk. When I was in China I walked every day. Here I walk to my car and from my car to the store. In China you're force to walk and I really enjoyed it. (of course I walk in a circle) Also, walking in some places in the US will get you killed.

Second, I've had mixed results with Acupunture, herbs, and massage. Qigong, IMO, is far superior if the individual is up to doing it. Most won't. I'm big on Qigong and firmly feel it should be a large part of one's daily practice. So, I'm with D_Glenn on this.

Agreed on the benefits of walking.
As I've said before circle-walking is probably one of the most beneficial qigong/daoyin practices because if you walk a circle with the same diameter as your body height- as you take each step, to get around your own inside leg the tailbone/coccyx is naturally moving, this works as a pumping action for the spinal fluid and in about 10 - 20 minutes 小周天(Xiao Zhou Tian) naturally opens and flows. Other activities though can take upwards of 1 to 2 hours to get a similar effect.

But the primary benefits of Bagua's circle-walking are Martial, while the health benefits are a side-effect- killing two birds with one stone.
Some of the martial benefits:
-The upper body is doing zhan-zhuang strengthening.
-The waist constantly twisting inward against the hip with each step as you try to keep the hand in the center- developing striking power.
-Lowering the stance and constantly driving the hips/knees/shins forward while grabbing the ground with the toes- develops the legs for the colliding leg attacks to an opponent.

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[Scott P. Phillips]

Glenn have you ever heard of Over Tonification? I think you're doing it.

But the primary benefits of Bagua's circle-walking are Martial, while the health benefits are a side-effect- killing two birds with one stone.

Or earlier you were saying that at a certain age one should switch from focusing on the dantian point to focusing on the mingmen point.

I would take your side on the importance of jing,qi and shen, but you try to shove everything into your own narrow box-like definitions. John at least got to old age, we should give him credit for that! On that other thread about Combat Uses of the Dantian, I didn't even try to get involved for exactly the reason John says--2 minutes of fighting will completely settle any debate on whether dantian action plays a role, where it is, and how it works.

Over tonification will make it impossible to soften your mental focus, and over the long term it will damage your jing.

[D_Glenn]

Glenn have you ever heard of Over Tonification? I think you're doing it.

But the primary benefits of Bagua's circle-walking are Martial, while the health benefits are a side-effect- killing two birds with one stone.

Or earlier you were saying that at a certain age one should switch from focusing on the dantian point to focusing on the mingmen point.

I would take your side on the importance of jing,qi and shen, but you try to shove everything into your own narrow box-like definitions. John at least got to old age, we should give him credit for that! On that other thread about Combat Uses of the Dantian, I didn't even try to get involved for exactly the reason John says--2 minutes of fighting will completely settle any debate on whether dantian action plays a role, where it is, and how it works.

Over tonification will make it impossible to soften your mental focus, and over the long term it will damage your jing.

Uhh... what?!

No. As usual I don't understand what you're saying.

And I'd prefer it if you didn't take my side on anything, especially on the issue of jing, because we'd already proved that you don't know what you're talking about on that subject.

But I do hope that is your subtle way of saying you would like to cross-hands with me because I can show you in about 15 seconds how my dantian works.

I'm very poor but if you have the funds to travel then shoot me a PM.

Actually you should try to come to our seminar here in September and we can cross hands then. Okay?


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[JonathanArthur]

D_Glen

Can ask what are the basic requirements of the circle walking that you practice? Specifically, are the feet separated, or do they follow the same line? Does the inside leg trace a different shape to the outside leg? Do you lift with the hip or the knee? Are there preparatory practices for filling the torso prior to training the circle? And how is the twist developed in your system?

I understand if the information I'm asking for is too much, but you've always been very forthcoming with the principles on which your system is based. My own practice is simply not developed enough to put forward my own understanding of these points, so I hope you don't mind my asking without first offering my own opinion.

jon

[D_Glenn]

D_Glen

Can ask what are the basic requirements of the circle walking that you practice? Specifically, are the feet separated, or do they follow the same line? Does the inside leg trace a different shape to the outside leg? Do you lift with the hip or the knee? Are there preparatory practices for filling the torso prior to training the circle? And how is the twist developed in your system?

I understand if the information I'm asking for is too much, but you've always been very forthcoming with the principles on which your system is based. My own practice is simply not developed enough to put forward my own understanding of these points, so I hope you don't mind my asking without first offering my own opinion.

jon

There are a lot of different ways to step: wheel stepping, crane stepping (lifting the hip), water-dripping stepping(more lifting the knee), etc. so there is no one correct way, the correct way is to only do 1 way for many months/years at a time so it becomes ingrained into the body, trying to do several conflicting practices at the same time will always be wrong.

We just do wuji stance before starting. Filling the dantian should be an instantaneous thought.

I'm pretty sure all the stepping methods use 'scissor-leg stepping' although there might be one that doesn't stress that. So the feet don't step on the same line but just on each side of it, and the line is thin.

Twisting:
When your outside foot steps forward, twist the waist to the center.
When your inside foot steps forward, twist the waist even harder towards the center.

This will 'wring' your waist like wringing water out of wet towel. And you obviously have to turn in both directions for the same amount of time to get equal development on both halves of your body.

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[D_Glenn]

Glenn have you ever heard of Over Tonification? I think you're doing it.

Ok. I think I understand.

We already discussed this I believe.

Trust me I don't over-tonify any 'yang' aspects. And as I've already pointed out practices and such for the elderly are different than for the young. And if someone didn't, as I already pointed out, practice correctly by preserving 'yin' throughout there whole life, and then try to increase 'yang', it'd probably still be a fast track to the grave.

Conserve 'yin' and tonify 'yin' if neccessary. Especially important in the CIMAs is kidney yin and liver yin, hence the emphasis on developing the lower dantian and the focus on 'turning left' and 'left-side practices'.

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[JonathanArthur]

Thank you. In the method I learnt we step on two lines, roughly two foot widths apart. This method comes from Guo Gumin's line.This is also in the requirements listed on the Ma gui Bagua Association website, written by Andrea Falk. So that is at least two lineages. Also a practitioner of Ma weiqi Bagua, whose been featured in the video section before also seems to use this method. There are very specific reasons for this stepping pattern and it is an integral component of the power generation and body method as I was taught it. This neigong is by far one of the most valuable things I've learnt and produces results that I haven't been able to gain elsewhere. Of course, there are many factors affecting this, and I'm certainly not saying this the 'right' way to walk.


I'd be interested to hear more about your particular line as it seems to be a very detailed method.Will try and sit down and write something out clearly and perhaps start another thread on the stepping methods and their relation to the body methods, power generation and techniques.

[Haoran]

This will 'wring' your waist like wringing water out of wet towel. And you obviously have to turn in both directions for the same amount of time to get equal development on both halves of your body.
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Agree with this. The only thing I don't see in Yin style bagua (from whatever I can see on the net) is wringing in the wrist/forearm (which is what we do). Do you also "wring" there Glenn?