Wang Shu Jin question

[Kevin_Wallbridge]

I'm not so sure about your "fat man" theory Johnathan. Have you ever met anyone from this lineage? Having met Hienz Rotthman, a Wang Fulai disciple from way back (his older brother Manfred I didn't meet but, was a Wang Shujin student as well as a Wang Fulai student) my feeling is more that its their Bagua influence that makes the shape. As well, your statement "he lacked the ability to move in an agile manner compared to other martial artists" is belied by ever third-hand eye witness account i have ever heard. In fact, unless its all myth, the opposite is true. Most people seem to have been completely stunned by how fast and agile such a fat guy was.

The only thing I can ever see from video is body alignment issues. I can see where joints are not balanced or bones are not aligned. These are the things that I use to speculate about a person's personal training. To look at that video and then conclude something about a lineage is moving onto pretty soft ground, don't you think? Especially without touching them or even asking directly.

[kenneth fish]

Lazyboxer:

Perhaps not - the young lady I referred to was living there in the 1970's (I was at school in Taichung in the mid to late 70's). Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Mr. Wells arrived about a decade later? Alan Ellerton interviewed the woman I mentioned - it would be interesting if he could be coaxed into posting something about her on his site.

Interesting about the tablet being erected by the "er fang". That says quite a lot about the relationship, and the tacit acceptance of her stature by the others who were in his circle.

Jonathon:

Really, was that called for? Yes, vegetarians can be quite obese (IMO vegetarianism is really not a healthy approach to diet, from a nutritional and endocrine point of view - and strict vegetarianism can be quite harmful in the long run). Still, making disparaging comments about someone (apart from their art) that you are too young to have known is just poor etiquette.

[lazyboxer]

Kenneth Fish:

Please allow me to correct you regarding Dr. Wells' arrival on the scene: he first met Wang Shujin in Taizhong (Taichung) in1970 under the auspices of Liao Weishan (Waysun Liao, now in Chicago). Marnix started regular study with Wang in 1972, receiving baishi in 1974. He was also invited to join Yiguandao, which he declined. Apart from absences while visiting the UK, he continued with Master Wang until his death in 1981.

Regarding vegetarianism, I've noticed a tendency amongst them, as I have also with those too poor to afford meat, to overdo the carbohydrates, possibly seen as an alternative energy source to animal protein. Carbs are only good for creating short term energy, and excessive consumption usually leads to obesity and late-life diabetes, from which Wang suffered.

[kenneth fish]

Thanks - I wasn't aware that of Marnix's time-line.

As for vegetarianism - there are carbs, and there are carbs. I think you mean that many vegetarians tend to overdo grain based foods - rice, noodles, wheat gluten etc. -these starch based foods are all quickly converted to glucose. In humans digestion of grains is accompanied by the release of lectins (which bind glucose). Although present in all foods, high concentrations of lectins are implicated in damage to some sensitive tissues. Lectin related damage to the islet cells of the pancreas may be one of the etiologies leading to diabetes.

[jonathan.bluestein]

Kevin & Kenneth - I was by no means claiming to know how the man moved. I was actually referring to the quoted accounts of him posted earlier by D_glenn in this very thread. There it was mentioned that he favoured some techniques, like low kicks, partly because they better suited his structure. I've heard this one about him before, but cannot come up with the source at the moment. Can't recall.

Kenneth - I honestly wan't aware that a Vegetarian could get so fat. Never seen one who was so fat in my life. I wasn't trying to pull a joke on Wang - I was honestly suggesting I think he might have not really been such a devote Vegetarian because I failed to believe one could get so fat that way. One of my gongfu brothers is vegetarian, about Wang's height, and cannot manage to gain weight with this diet. He weighs 60kg/132lb, which is about half of Wang's size (from what I've read before), at about the same height!! (5'10, wasn't it?)
I feel I was quite objective in my comment about Wang. I respect his skills, abilities and lifetime achievements. Apart from that, he WAS a very fat man, and that's not healthy. You can both appreciate someone and bear some criticism towards him.

Kevin - I actually practiced Tui Shou and talked with a lot people from his lineage, which were all students of one of his grand-students (grand-students of Wang Fulai). I've also seen many of them practicing in the park, doing all three IMA. Everyone that I've ever met from this organization was a kind individual, and most of them are very good at Tui Shou. However, they don't practice Fa Jin. They confuse Jin with Jing. They think that Fa Jin practice is wasting Jing, and can get you sick. Nir Malhi, Wang's grand-student through Wang Fulai, and the head of the Israeli branch, have had cancer for many years now. Some his the students here actually fear it might have to do with that "fa jin will get you ill thing". That's pretty messed up. The guy actually has cancer because he used to be in the Israeli navy special ops, and they were doing diving training in a very polluted river. It's a known story - everyone who had ever been diving there got fatal cancer... We're talking dozens of people. Can you imagine IMA without Fa Jin though? How can you tell if your Xing Yi mechanics are correct without Fa Jin? That stuff is beyond me, and can explain why their Xing Yi looks that way. Compare Wang Fulai's Xing Yi to Yang Hai's or Luo Dexiu's videos on youtube and you'll see what I'm talking about. It's like a different martial art.

RobT - I too practice Xing Yi. We also hold the lower hand in front of the Dantian. Their version of Santi / Dzuan Quan is with that hand more in front of the body (as in covering a large belly), with a more even weight distribution (hard putting lots of weight on one leg when you're so fat), and is more frontal with the Kua. It looks like what I was initially taught to stand when I was just starting out, because my Kua was still closed and stiff, and my shoulders weren't all that flexible. You can't use a lot of the shenfa in our lineage with that kind of Santi. It would simply be considered incorrect.

[Daniel]

RobT - I too practice Xing Yi. We also hold the lower hand in front of the Dantian. Their version of Santi / Dzuan Quan is with that hand more in front of the body (as in covering a large belly), with a more even weight distribution (hard putting lots of weight on one leg when you're so fat), and is more frontal with the Kua. It looks like what I was initially taught to stand when I was just starting out, because my Kua was still closed and stiff, and my shoulders weren't all that flexible. You can't use a lot of the shenfa in our lineage with that kind of Santi. It would simply be considered incorrect.

Are you seriously suggesting 1) that Wang was so unskilled he taught shenfa based on his own physique and not the principles of Xingyi he had been taught? 2) Suggesting it again in the idea that he based his standing postures on that? There are many pics of his standing postures. Read up on things before you comment on them, please.

Maybe this is another case of English being your second language giving you problems in phrasing yourself here.

It´s my second language too, by the way.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[jonathan.bluestein]

RobT - I too practice Xing Yi. We also hold the lower hand in front of the Dantian. Their version of Santi / Dzuan Quan is with that hand more in front of the body (as in covering a large belly), with a more even weight distribution (hard putting lots of weight on one leg when you're so fat), and is more frontal with the Kua. It looks like what I was initially taught to stand when I was just starting out, because my Kua was still closed and stiff, and my shoulders weren't all that flexible. You can't use a lot of the shenfa in our lineage with that kind of Santi. It would simply be considered incorrect.

Are you seriously suggesting 1) that Wang was so unskilled he taught shenfa based on his own physique and not the principles of Xingyi he had been taught? 2) Suggesting it again in the idea that he based his standing postures on that? There are many pics of his standing postures. Read up on things before you comment on them, please.

Maybe this is another case of English being your second language giving you problems in phrasing yourself here.

It´s my second language too, by the way.
Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

No, that's not what I'm suggesting. As I said before - that's probably WORKED for Wang, keeping in mind his shenfa was very advanced, and that he had his unique body structure. You change your art over the years to suit your strong points. Could very well be that Wang could use good shenfa with that external structure because he was very skilled and experienced. You ought to still teach other people the way you were originally taught, and not the personal adjustment you've come up with over the years.
I cannot know how and what Wang taught. Still, it is evident, in my opinion, that the Xing Yi practiced by many people from his lineage today is externally "fat man's Xing Yi". Does it mean it's his fault? I wouldn't rush to blame him. We all know that the teacher can tell students to practice one thing, with the students nonetheless trying to imitate what he was personally practicing and wouldn't have wanted them to copy. I can't tell what happened, only judge the final outcome.

I also wasn't referring to how they held Santi/Dzuan as Zhan Zhuang, but rather how I saw them move with these movements (which I have seen countless times with my own eyes in the park, and on Youtube watching Wang Fulai and Nir Malhi demonstrate). I don't think that there should be a difference externally, though.

Since you brought up the teaching-ability/skill connection... Well, sometimes the two aren't related. Lets put Wang's case aside for a sec, I'm not referring to him... A person can be pretty mediocre in his trade/profession/art, and still be an awesome teacher. In contrast, many who posses a rare natural talent and are at the top of the game can suck as teachers. Many hold the belief that the best teachers on any subject in the world are usually not the best in their field. So even were I to say Wang wasn't a good teacher (which I wasn't), that says nothing of his skill as a martial artist.

[Frazetta]

Jonathon:
Really, was that called for? Yes, vegetarians can be quite obese (IMO vegetarianism is really not a healthy approach to diet, from a nutritional and endocrine point of view - and strict vegetarianism can be quite harmful in the long run). Still, making disparaging comments about someone (apart from their art) that you are too young to have known is just poor etiquette.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, Dr. Fish.

[mixjourneyman]

I am primarily interested in why WSJ's bagua (only from what I have seen on the net, short clip of WSJ and a longer clip of Wang Fulai) looks nothing like other examples of Zhang Zhaodong's bagua such as this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nXfpb9NaBA
And also why Wang's bagua looks nothing like Jiang Rongqiao's when they were both disciples of Zhang Zhaodong.
Is it possible that Wang altered his bagua to have more of a yin yang bapanzhang flavour (which he is also said to have learned in Tianjin).
It has always confused me.

[RobT]

@jonathan.bluestein
Interesting comments about the Israeli branch of chengming through Fulai. In my experience (through Marnix Wells), fajin is definitely a foundational part of our practice, both "single movement drills" (which are explicitly mentioned in Wang's books) and two person practice. Our santi weight distribution would put more weight on the rear leg (60-40 or 70-30).

While I don't doubt your observations are true, I therefore might be careful about generalising about WSJ students and teaching in general.

@mixjourneyman
While WSJ studied at ZZD school (I won't get into the detailed debate on that point here, and simply leave it at that) he was certainly much influenced by his time with Xiao Haibo (bapanzhang, particularly the stepping). standing practice through Wang Xiangzhai, and exchanges with Chen Panling. As Dr Fish has also mentioned, Wang roomed with Zhang Junfeng on arrival in Taiwan, and I beleive Robert Smith has 8mm footage of Wang practicing some of the straight line sets that he must have picked up there.

His bagua empty hand curriculum comprised a "continuous linking" set (lian huan) a "swimming body" set (you shen) and a 3rd set said to be what he was originally taught by ZZD. The first is almost certainly from Chen Panling, and it (togeather with the 2nd) is what WSJ bagua is usually identified with.

Wang said "the form is fixed by tradition, but the variations are 10,000 [i.e. endless]". In actual fact, he emphasised standing and the single movement exercises (i.e. shen fa and the internal power generation mechanics) rather more than learning many long forms with focus on "correct" external shape. He wasn't a forms person. It may be interesting to note that some students ba shi without being taught the original ZZD set.

A more general comment on ZZD bagua is to note that while Jian Rongqiao is the most well known exponent of the style, other senior students also split off and did their own thing, often looking very different (the most well known example being Han Muxia, who is said to have gone his own way having fallen out with ZZD - allegedly having challenged him and being beaten haging got a bit too big fis boots along the lines of "best student, possibly better than the master who taught him"). JRQ hinmself learnt from other masters as well (Chen Yushan, Li Cunyi, Wu Yihui, Cheng Tinghua etc.)

Marinx has some strong words to say about "pure lineages", describing them as "often either bogus, or deficient, and usually both"
Here's a detailed article on some of the above, written a few years ago:
http://www.apittman.com/ptt/east/bagua-lineages.shtml

[bailewen]

Also, watching his stuff on Youtube, I didn't like that either. I also find it hard to believe a Vegetarian can get so fat :-P

Sure about that?

Vegetarian:

Meat Eater:

[jonathan.bluestein]

@jonathan.bluestein
Interesting comments about the Israeli branch of chengming through Fulai. In my experience (through Marnix Wells), fajin is definitely a foundational part of our practice, both "single movement drills" (which are explicitly mentioned in Wang's books) and two person practice. Our santi weight distribution would put more weight on the rear leg (60-40 or 70-30).

While I don't doubt your observations are true, I therefore might be careful about generalising about WSJ students and teaching in general.

You're right, of course. I can only attest for what's happening over here. Having seen so many people doing the same thing, though, it seemed like the trend within the lineage itself. The non-fa-jin thing I've seen and heard from students with over 12 years of experience too. I think there could be a few possible reasons for this:
1. The Israeli branch is heavily into marketing, so they might want to lure people in with less combative approach. They don't even call themselves "WSG Lineage", but "The Israeli Tai Chi Center" (they aren't centred anywhere, they've got dozens of branches nowadays.. They're the biggest IMA organization in Israel).
2. They might be hiding this "secret" from the public
3. And/or hiding it from students until they reach a certain level...

Anyhow, having done Tui Shou with many of them, they couldn't for the life of them issue any fa jin. They're very good at Tui Shou because they're very soft and flowing, but almost all of them lacked structure, including one 18 year veteran who himself is teaching privately (not associated with them any more). I haven't had a chance to cross hands with anyone considered a serious licensed teacher from their organization, though, as I don't tend to approach teachers and ask to train with them.

This is a veteran in-door student of Wang's grandstudent (yes, they have in-door students in the ISRAELI branch, and they pay a whole lot more)... You be the judge. Notice there's No Fa Jin, lots of moving with the hands, Karate Uchi-Uke instead of Heng Quan, rounded back at times, no Yi, etc... He even finished the form going into Neko-Ashi-Dachi (karate cat stance) instead of Santi . The Staff form is pretty, but it ain't no Xing Yi... Looks like some Shaolin mixed with Kobudo :-P He's not the only one who looks like that - that's the Xing Yi they teach. That's what I regularly see at the park. He's actually demonstrating a few meters away from where we usually practice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snHcFBAb ... r_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOj_m3lA ... r_embedded

[jonathan.bluestein]

Also, watching his stuff on Youtube, I didn't like that either. I also find it hard to believe a Vegetarian can get so fat :-P

Sure about that?

Vegetarian:
..............................
Meat Eater:
..........................

Hahahaha
nice 1
I think cows grow that massive because they have a 4 separated digestive systems, don't they?

[bailewen]

Yes, it was a joke but it was a joke based on my own completely non-scientific meditations.

Nevermind cows. Since so much of this vegetarian vs. meat eater (omnivore really) discussion is based on pseudo scientific nonsense anyways, I like to throw in a metaphorical pseudo scientific wrench in the works. I mean, there is actual real science on the subject but hardly anyone making dietary decisions actually looks into it. Dr. Kenneth Fish is one of those rare types posting on this particular issue from actual knowledge of the subject. My mom is vegetarian, nearly vegan. My step-dad only eats eggs and occasionally salmon. (doesn't eat any other fish) I grew up bathed in new age pseudo-scientific nutritional nonsense loaded with pointless metaphors to make points.

So forget the cow. Just list any number of purely vegetarian animals. Cows, elephants, hippopotamus, sheep....etc. Then list the carnivores, the meat eaters....wolf, tiger, lion, cat, shark, eagle....etc.

Which category of animals best typifies the kind of physical attributes you would most like to emulate?

[mixjourneyman]

RobT: that is super interesting!!!!! Thanks for the info.
JRQ certainly had his own flavour so I wouldn't hold him as the gold standard of Zhang style, just someone whose form is fairly similar to Zhang style. the gentleman shown in the video I posted studied from a master who claims his grandfather studied with Zhang. That is similar to my own teacher, Yang Hai, whose grandfather, Yang Qinglin also studied with Zhang. Our form is very similar to the one posted in the video, although our shenfa and posture are decidedly different (we have the same movement and quality of jin though). That was my frame of reference, but I could be out to lunch.
I remember my teacher saying that he didn't think it was too outrageous to put WSJ in the ZZD camp, since WSJ's xingyi seems to be commensurate with aspects of ZZD's xingyi.
Either way, Wang was one of the very best masters in Taiwan during that period and should be given a lot of respect along with People like Chen Panling and Zhang Zhunfeng.

Thanks for the insight, it is really appreciated