Spirituality, Health, and Training to Fight

[strawdog]

When you have to dress up and bow down to the martial gods, that's a sign that your shit is "probably" fake.

[Pandrews1982]

Any practice can be an act of ritual and of religious or spiritual importance, if doing woodwork or touch typing or even having sex, gives you some kind of insight into how the universe works and your place within it then its a spiritual practice.

I think fighting or practice of martial matters is a good spiritual practice because unlike many spiritual practices which don't have a mechanism for testing themselves fighting does, you do something out of accordance with the flow of energy of your partner or the environment and you get hit or fall down or what have you.

To me martial arts is just as much a religion as Christianity or Buddhism or Taoism etc. but I think its an issue of worldview, if you think the universe is something spiritual and to be revered then everything becomes spiritual. I guess this is an animistic viewpoint and what Tim was relating to is more doctrinated religous practices based upon faith.

As for art - i like beleive this primarily refers to the creative aspect of the practice, how you take and make the methods your own rather than a catalogue of set piece techniques to be done prescriptively, rather than any aesthetic or "eye of the beholder" type view. Like any craftsperson you develop your tools, you show you can use them for specific tasks and then you master the craft by applying those tools and skills to your own "art".

I also think its a little bit important to have at least some knowledge of the history and culture of the art you practice to put it in its original context and see how it relates to what you do now and why the art does the things it does.

[Chris Fleming]

from Tim Cartmell http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/27/7870.html?1278037879

There is no such thing as "spirituality" outside a value judgement an individual chooses to make about something they think or do.

"Martial arts" are developed in specific cultures, but fighting transcends any collective human ritual.

And "art" is in the eye of the beholder.

If someone claims they have the methods that will allow you to learn how to actually defend yourself/fight, the addition of concepts like "spirituality" and "culture" should immediately be red flags for marketing over substance.

Same for health practices in my opinion.

Unless you consider having conversations with your organs somehow spiritual.

Love it! Always have to just smile at people who think martial arts are "spiritual". LOLZ.

[somatai]

if someone is inclined toward spirit, martial arts is a great training for it......it in itself has nothing spiritual about it, spiritual pursuit is a disposition toward any endeavour, including doing nothing.

[DeusTrismegistus]

if someone is inclined toward spirit, martial arts is a great training for it......it in itself has nothing spiritual about it, spiritual pursuit is a disposition toward any endeavour, including doing nothing.

I don't do martial arts because I am spirtitual, I am spiritual because I do martial arts.

The biggest hindrance to spiritual development is EGO, and what do you know that is a hindrance in martial development too. As one of my favorite artists says, "So crucify the ego, before its far too late, to leave behind this place so negative blind and cynical".

And what is awesome for getting rid if ego? That's right, an ass whoopin.

[JessOBrien]

I've met some people who used full contact and other types of fighting and sparring as a way to increase their ability to be mindful and "in the moment" to further their study of meditation. I was told that there are some people in Asia who use this method but that it's not a very common practice.

I've tried it before and found it quite useful.

I think freestyle fighting can be a great way to increase the ability to concentrate one's awareness. If you choose to then apply that awareness to your spiritual practice (particularly Eastern ones like meditation) then it can be a powerful tool. I'm not sure it would work for Abrahamic religions, but maybe!

Jess O

[neijia_boxer]

Meditation practices enhance my fighting ability. 'nuff said.

[MartialDev]

One of the greatest gifts a high-level spiritual master ever gave me, was to show me his Xingyi skills.
He wasn't very good at all.

Martial artists know as much about spiritual science as spiritualists know about martial arts. Which IME, is less than half as much as they think. I like Tim Cartmell but anyone who asks him for "the truth" about these matters is barking up the wrong tree. And I don't think that quoting him, in this particular context, is really so different than building him an altar and burning incense in front of his photo.

Take that!

[karlson]

if someone is inclined toward spirit, martial arts is a great training for it......it in itself has nothing spiritual about it, spiritual pursuit is a disposition toward any endeavour, including doing nothing.

The biggest hindrance to spiritual development is EGO, and what do you know that is a hindrance in martial development too.

I disagree about getting rid of the ego. The ego has to be there for you to be you. Otherwise, one would be in a purely spiritual realm and that we are not. The question then pops up, what is the relationship of spirit to ego?

[Daniel]

Martial arts in themselves will not necessarily make someone more spiritual. There are however meditation practices that go with some of them on a basic level to increase your fighting skill, and there are also spiritual systems that include martial practices as a precise tool for spiritual development, freedom, and freedom from the fear and neurosis that can drive the practice of martial arts.

The ego is something that should be dissolved slowly through practice. Ego is not the same as innate personality, nor the same as individuality.The ego is created partially through the crap we go through, and good stuff too, over a lifetime. I think martial arts should give not only actual ability against violence and threat, but also make us more free and able to give voice to the voiceless. Big subject.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Bodywork]

from Tim Cartmell http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/27/7870.html?1278037879
[i]There is no such thing as "spirituality" outside a value judgement an individual chooses to make about something they think or do.

Which is basically saying there is no sprituality that is real, other than a man made value judgment. He basically is telling billions of people they are delluded into believing in something that is not real...er okay...and?

"Martial arts" are developed in specific cultures, but fighting transcends any collective human ritual.

Most Fighting systems were intertwined with cultural and quasi spiritual beliefs and were actually developed within that framework. It sounds rather sophmoric to divorce them from their origins. A more balanced statement might be to discuss sports (which is what Tim teaches -sport grappling) and how they developed as a later day adjunct from many of the worlds martial art culture.

And "art" is in the eye of the beholder.

okay...duh!

If someone claims they have the methods that will allow you to learn how to actually defend yourself/fight, the addition of concepts like "spirituality" and "culture" should immediately be red flags for marketing over substance.

This is quite simply wrong and does a huge disservice to Tims otherwise solid credibility. It can be blown up with about a hundred historical precidents; some of which involve men who fought and died in battles and confrontations far beyond anything Tim ever faced or will ever face in his lifetime. If I have to take an opinion; their''s or his? I'll take theirs...Tim's opinions are all but meaningless in comparison.

Same for health practices in my opinion.

There is a significant factor for improving my own health intertwined with how I move to fight. Other than internet jockies I have not met a human being who looked me in the eye and told me I didn't know how to fight. Nor would Tim.
I think Tim missed it on these quotes. I don't value his opinion on spirituality in historcial context to fighting anymore than I would any other good sport grappler anyway.
I mean...so what?
Dan

[kshurika]

"Getting rid of the ego" is a big thing in yoga. You hear it all the time. In Brentwood, California, that is. And guess where most of the ego is - in Brentwood and in yoga in general. Rodney Yee, Shiva Rea, Seane Corn, Steve Ross, and so many others in the yoga world just love floating around on clouds of adoration, smiling every-so-benignly on their adoring hordes. Also, they pretty much suck as hatha yoga teachers. I can say that; I've known them since their pre-god days. I agree that ego is what makes you, you. The suppression of the ego thing is relatively new in yoga philosophy, as are the ethical constraints of yama and niyama.

Tim has studied the philosophical and spiritual tradition of China to a deep extent and in the original classical Chinese. I've never heard him knock it. I think that what he's saying is that spiritual proclivities don't make you a better fighter and martial proclivities won't make you a better sage. Just as being able to do a nice supta virasana and have your own clothing line doesn't make you a yoga master.

[Slim]

I think the main issue that gives this debate so much momentum comes down to cultural differences.

Based on my experience it seems that in the West things are more compartmentalized compared with Chinese culture. In the West religion is religion, philosophy is philosophy, politics is politics, and kicking ass is kicking ass. Us Westerners seem to like these things nicely and cleanly separated. From my exposure to, and engagement with Chinese culture it seems that things are not nearly so separated there. There seems to be an existing cultural force that acts to bring things together, including various cultural forms. Add on to this that historically Chinese also seem to foreground issues such as virtue, propriety, and becoming human, and that many activities also act as vehicles for this kind of cultivation. I think CMA is a prime example of this process.

I think what happens is that when CMA gets transplanted to the West, it clashes with our Western sensibilities. Sensibilities that are honed to smell out any sort of weird spiritual hocus pocus, especially when we’re talking about something as straight forward as ass-kicking.

[Chris Fleming]

"Which is basically saying there is no sprituality that is real, other than a man made value judgment or beliefs. He basically is telling billions of people they are delluded into believing in something that is not real."

And in a very real sense, that's absolutely true. People all over the world are contemplating their navels, hugging their cheeeee, and thinking that by doing these things there is some kind of "spiritual" benefit, regardless of them having no idea of what the word "spiritual" even means. Most probably think that word means something like being in a peaceful state of mind or getting in touch with your feeeeeeelings or contemplating the universe or (my favorite), "being a good person". LOL.

[GrahamB]

When you have to dress up and bow down to the martial gods, that's a sign that your shit is "probably" fake.

Probably, but not always.

Friend of mine sought out a well recommended Chinese Sifu in Hong Kong recently - he has a little shrine to the God of martial arts in his Gwoon, but his shit was most definitely not shit. In fact he is awesome. Will post my friend's account here once it is ready.