Spirituality, Health, and Training to Fight

[wiesiek]

Chris,
I`m sorry about my spelling,
all my posts i writte directly "from head" and most of the time don`t look into dictionary /time!/,
hoppi`n i will improve with time and your help / thank you for patience in advance/

..." your clarity needs some work"..
this is very important point,
however not only for my posts...
from my side, i always try to clear up my points if somebody is asking.

Back to the spirit things:
it is really hard to write about realms beyond our everydays "standard" live /if Tao can be described ISN`T real one/,
from my own experience -
when i was in my `20 i started to ask similar q.?
I had the opportunity to meet zen and buddisth teachers,
interesting thing is, that i get my questions answered /most of the time/ BEFORE i really asked

to clear up the "spirit" from my previous post - spirit means in Poland and Russia hig% alc. and i probably was wrong in thinking that it is kind of "international" word
so
I mist my "joke with second bottom"...
sorry

ps
Best way for you is to get in touch witch reall good spiritual teacher,
from my experience - Soen Sa Nim /zen/ left me with some more q?
Trungpa Rinpoche /tybetan B./and no q.a. any more.
best
W

[Chris Fleming]

"If so by your definition and the link you provided any time you make a conscience decision on whether something is right or wrong that is spiritual, or whenever you pray to god in the christian manner, or whenever you intuitively know something."

It is hard for me to understand what you want to get from me from this, but in any case, no, I don't believe that deciding if something is right or wrong is "spiritual". Anyone can do that. And I truly don't know what "pray to God in the christian manner" means.

I believe there is a difference between the functions of our human spirit and what is "spiritual", the latter of which I apply a strict definition that I totally understand that basically no one else on here has.

Having a conscience, for instance (in feeling what is right or wrong), is a function of the spirit, we all have it. Some will have by their live choices dulled this down to the point of it not functioning at all as if they had none.

Intuition is a function of our spirit. I remember when I was in a different country, meditating late at night I got the thought that my girl friend's grandmother had died. There was no way I should have had any thought of it, she was old but there was no immediate health problem and she was fairly strong. I tried to shake that thought away and wondered why my mind had wandered to some weird thoughts but when I got back to the dorms I found an email to me from her telling me her grandmother just died. That case, and many many other instances (and I'm sure you have many of your own) are examples of intuition.

What is "spirituality" to me is the actual use of our spirit to fellowship with, contact and experience God. Doing practices to "be a better person" or to "be good" are in a totally different realm. In that regard, that is why I said earlier that I don't believe God cares one iota for our "spirituality" or our "goodness", as these things are completely separate from Him. You can have all the "good" in the world but at the same time can have absolutely no constitution of Christ in your being. Actually this desire to "be a better person" and whatnot can be a veil between a person and God.

[Scott P. Phillips]

[DeusTrismegistus]

"If so by your definition and the link you provided any time you make a conscience decision on whether something is right or wrong that is spiritual, or whenever you pray to god in the christian manner, or whenever you intuitively know something."

It is hard for me to understand what you want to get from me from this, but in any case, no, I don't believe that deciding if something is right or wrong is "spiritual". Anyone can do that. And I truly don't know what "pray to God in the christian manner" means.

I believe there is a difference between the functions of our human spirit and what is "spiritual", the latter of which I apply a strict definition that I totally understand that basically no one else on here has.

Having a conscience, for instance (in feeling what is right or wrong), is a function of the spirit, we all have it. Some will have by their live choices dulled this down to the point of it not functioning at all as if they had none.

Intuition is a function of our spirit. I remember when I was in a different country, meditating late at night I got the thought that my girl friend's grandmother had died. There was no way I should have had any thought of it, she was old but there was no immediate health problem and she was fairly strong. I tried to shake that thought away and wondered why my mind had wandered to some weird thoughts but when I got back to the dorms I found an email to me from her telling me her grandmother just died. That case, and many many other instances (and I'm sure you have many of your own) are examples of intuition.

What is "spirituality" to me is the actual use of our spirit to fellowship with, contact and experience God. Doing practices to "be a better person" or to "be good" are in a totally different realm. In that regard, that is why I said earlier that I don't believe God cares one iota for our "spirituality" or our "goodness", as these things are completely separate from Him. You can have all the "good" in the world but at the same time can have absolutely no constitution of Christ in your being. Actually this desire to "be a better person" and whatnot can be a veil between a person and God.

Ok now we are getting somewhere.

I actually don't think we are that far apart. I really think you have a very good definition of spirituality there. I guess the question would then boil down to what kinds of practices allow someone to contact and experience God. I really believe what you are describing is the same as what I meant earlier as the spiritual experience. The thing is that while I have not actually had a "spiritual experience" as I am using the term while meditating or doing martial arts I know that it is the experience I do have through my martial arts and meditation that not only allowed me to be able to have those spiritual experiences. It is also my martial arts experience and practice that has led me to inquire on the subject of spirituality more and more as I get older. If it was easy to have these things happen there would be no arguments on whether god or anything beyond our 5 senses exists IMO.

So if I were to use your definition of spirituality as a starting point I would simply broaden it to include practices that lead to or prepare someone to be able to experience and contact God.

[paranoidandroid]

A few reasons why people believe in a god:

-one cannot overcome the challenges of life on their own, so people fantasize an entity that gives them strength(hope)
-one cannot take the fact, that we are just a lifeform in a big universe with no god like plan(inferiority complex) and not so much different than animals(there is no sense in life, other than what we make of it)
-one cannot take the fact, that moral is man made(without god no moral, what to do, what not to do(Humas cannot decide what to do and what not(see inferiorty complex))
-one cannot take the fact, that someday we die and vanish. (see 1 and inferiority complex)
-no good education. no good logic skills.

"On the other hand, such a metaphysical pseudo-proposition as “the Absolute enters into, but is itself incapable
of, evolution and progress,“(4) is not even in principle verifiable. For one cannot conceive of an observation which would enable one to determine whether the Absolute did, or did not, enter into evolution and progress. Of course it is possible that the author of such a remark is using English words in a way in which they are not commonly used by English-speaking people, and that he does, in fact, intend to assert something which could be empirically verified. But until he makes us understand how the proposition that he wishes to express would be verified, he fails to communicate anything to us."
Alfred Ayer, Language, Truth and Logic.

[ashe]

from Tim Cartmell http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/27/7870.html?1278037879
[i]There is no such thing as "spirituality" outside a value judgement an individual chooses to make about something they think or do.

Which is basically saying there is no sprituality that is real, other than a man made value judgment. He basically is telling billions of people they are delluded into believing in something that is not real...er okay...and?

"Martial arts" are developed in specific cultures, but fighting transcends any collective human ritual.

Most Fighting systems were intertwined with cultural and quasi spiritual beliefs and were actually developed within that framework. It sounds rather sophmoric to divorce them from their origins. A more balanced statement might be to discuss sports (which is what Tim teaches -sport grappling) and how they developed as a later day adjunct from many of the worlds martial art culture.

And "art" is in the eye of the beholder.

okay...duh!

If someone claims they have the methods that will allow you to learn how to actually defend yourself/fight, the addition of concepts like "spirituality" and "culture" should immediately be red flags for marketing over substance.

This is quite simply wrong and does a huge disservice to Tims otherwise solid credibility. It can be blown up with about a hundred historical precidents; some of which involve men who fought and died in battles and confrontations far beyond anything Tim ever faced or will ever face in his lifetime. If I have to take an opinion; their''s or his? I'll take theirs...Tim's opinions are all but meaningless in comparison.

Same for health practices in my opinion.

There is a significant factor for improving my own health intertwined with how I move to fight. Other than internet jockies I have not met a human being who looked me in the eye and told me I didn't know how to fight. Nor would Tim.
I think Tim missed it on these quotes. I don't value his opinion on spirituality in historcial context to fighting anymore than I would any other good sport grappler anyway.
I mean...so what?
Dan

+1

I think I understand where he's coming from, and might even go so far as to say maybe he's even playing devils advocate here, just to try and give a wake up call to the many people out there who are essentially training garbage and hiding it under a tarp of "spiritual practice" but I think it does a great disservice to the legitimate stuff.

[wiesiek]

.."Intuition is a function of our spirit..."

not quite...
intuition is form of comunications of our sub-consciousness ,/uff this time i checked my s./
and
because we are able to "talk" with higher energys only by sub-consciousness it CAN be used by spirit
but
most of the time this is mesage from our sub-c.
We are all connected via sub-consciousness network
so, it is rellativly easy to get such message from people close to you.

Spiritual mesage /from higher vibrations [God?] guarding angels?/ is direct and strong, basically very short in time and rich in meanings, wheras intuition last much longer, pretty offen is repeated, and feels more like "pressure from inside"
/my own experience/
however any of them will be consider as a "makyo" by Zen Master
but
im not the Master, so i can split the hair.

[wiesiek]

hey, Paranoidandroid,
spiritual word is absent /doesn`t egsist/ for people w/o sub-consciousness,
it quite rare, but happens...
Hitler and Stalin are two well known...

really, this time it is not the joke.

[Pandrews1982]

A few reasons why people believe in a god:
etc. etc.
-no good education. no good logic skills.

I think that statement is midly offensive implying that people who do not believe in a God are somehow more intelligent or are superior to those with greater opportunities for education.

I believe that you are talking about a supernatural god in the above case (i.e. an old beardy imaginary friend on a cloud in the sky listening to prayers and guiding the human race along some planned path), however there is another side to what some might call God, its what Dawkings described as "the Einstienian God" in his book the god delusion, a view that the universe itself is divine, and Dawkings made a point of dedicating the whole first chapter to this view point and then saying that the critique he was to use in the rest of the book was aimed at religious systems which believe in a supernatural god rather than this Einstienian God.

I think it is sad that science is more and more becoming a tool to take the wonder out of the universe rather than a discipline to further connect with the divine. In fact i would go further and say that there are probably many scientists who still find wonder in their work but their results as interpreted by the media and society as a whole are used to take the wonder out of our world. These days people have a culture of discarding or ignoring those things which have been investigated, they have been labelled and put in a box and can be ignored because we know what they are and as such we are increasingly separated from nature. In general I think people only care for those things which are exciting or extravagant and yet superficial, which is why I believe so few people are willing to really look deeply into the traditional martial arts and understand them and really make them work.

[cdobe]

A few reasons why people believe in a god:
etc. etc.
-no good education. no good logic skills.

I think that statement is midly offensive implying that people who do not believe in a God are somehow more intelligent or are superior to those with greater opportunities for education.

Like it or not: There have been studies that suggest just that.

What is "spirituality" to me is the actual use of our spirit to fellowship with, contact and experience God. Doing practices to "be a better person" or to "be good" are in a totally different realm. In that regard, that is why I said earlier that I don't believe God cares one iota for our "spirituality" or our "goodness", as these things are completely separate from Him. You can have all the "good" in the world but at the same time can have absolutely no constitution of Christ in your being. Actually this desire to "be a better person" and whatnot can be a veil between a person and God.

For the record: Being a good person and having a constitution of Christ in your being are two completely seperate things. Thank you

[Ralteria]

I think it is sad that science is more and more becoming a tool to take the wonder out of the universe rather than a discipline to further connect with the divine. In fact i would go further and say that there are probably many scientists who still find wonder in their work but their results as interpreted by the media and society as a whole are used to take the wonder out of our world. These days people have a culture of discarding or ignoring those things which have been investigated, they have been labelled and put in a box and can be ignored because we know what they are and as such we are increasingly separated from nature.

Excellent point. Its very easy to see how human beings have separated themselves from reality merely by attaching a logo onto something. I find it hard to take whatever scientific evidence and understanding there is and NOT see something miraculous. The shear concept of chemistry and physics is absolutely astounding. Our anatomy is freaking brilliant. Its a shame that many have to have bells and whistles on there "divinity" when ultimately the sublime nature of the universe is staring at them constantly, day in/day out

In general I think people only care for those things which are exciting or extravagant and yet superficial, which is why I believe so few people are willing to really look deeply into the traditional martial arts and understand them and really make them work.

However it's the same exciting/extravagant/superficial things that are tossed around in martial arts (especially internal) that pull many to it, regardless of whether it's for the right reasons or not. Traditional martial arts today, have nothing to do with any real tradition, I dare say. Merely a mockery of Confucian ethics jam packed into bite size morsels to serve up to people as proof of tradition. I doubt the farmer, fearing for his life 200 years ago, really cared if what he was learning was traditional, as long as it worked. Ultimately, what people don't want to hear is that the simple is truth, and the truth is profane. Truly understanding what you are doing and what is around you and how near to the universe you are (and death for that matter) is a scary prospect. People want to feel safe. And while I don't necessarily feel that paranoid android's summation on why people believe in a God is all inclusive, or even correct, it should be noted that many people find the unknown and uncertainty to be absolutely paralyzing.

[paranoidandroid]

I will quote one of my favourite authors:
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? " Douglas Adams.

I think if we demystify all the seemingly marveouls things, see how they work, we will take more resbonsibility for others and for the other fellow species that inhabit the planet too and the universe itself. We must know why it is wrong to burn someone who is accused as a witch. We must know why abortion can be right. we must know, why too much co2 is bad for the planet, we must know why there is incest, why we murder, why we are aggresive.
And only if there is high probaplity that statements are true, then we discuss, what culture, what world view, what what moral standards seem the most resonable.

People are afraid of what there really is, because they deloud themselves in a false sense of security.
Moral standards, dogmas, theories, must always be questioned in the light of new evidence.(
Science must also be questioned, therefore we have a discipline in (analytic) philosphy that does that too (philosophy of science)).

A may be a christian and he is too afraid to let his dogma go, because all his former life may be lie, all his actions were based on a lie.
B may belive he is talking with god, but suddenly neuro science shows him, it was all in head.
C thought that his traditional martial arts training(forms, forms and forms, eventually a little pushing hands and very little applications), that he did not question a bit, makes him a good fighter. But he will never try, because it could turn out, he has wasted all his time.
D wants to be gay, but in his head, there is "Gays go to hell". He will never question the norm "Dont be gay or you will go to hell" because he is too afraid of what will happen if he suddenly is openly gay.

There seems to be an agreement, that it is alright for people to lie to themselves in bad situations. "A had terrible expierneces in life, his parents have died, he is broke and so on". So suddenly its alright for him, to believe in total rubbish, just to get him trough the day.
I think this totaly wrong. We, as the human race should build a world, that is based on rational discourse, honesty, understanding and strength(mental strength, to have the gut, to see things as they are, take resbonsibility etc.). I know this is hard, even if we dont succed, we should at least try.

I think that statement is midly offensive implying that people who do not believe in a God are somehow more intelligent or are superior to those with greater opportunities for education.

Education is not a sufficent condition(meaning good schools etc.). But learning and understanding is. look at africa(esp. primitives), islamic countries(fanatics) or europe in the middle ages. Why did they and do believe in total rubbish?
Also I think, it would be only offensive if I want to make them fell bad and I want the feeling of superiority.

Why call the universe "divine" if we even do not know how to define a word like that? I´m a strong believer, that we should not use words and sentences(without further explainations), where noone has an idea how to define them correctly (what they may mean) or that do not make sense in discourse with information value(in literature you can).
Examples: "Punch without your shoulder."
"Make your body as a dead rotten tree".
"True strength is total weakness."
"Punch from the dan tien."
"This exercise is good for the chi."
"Pure Being and pure nothing are, therefore, the same."
"Open the 7 chakras and kundalini will flow."
I hope someone will understand it and sorry for typos and so on.

[wiesiek]

"divine" is a bag were we put all phenomena unexplained by modern science
strange thing is, that
instead make it /the bag/ smaller from new discoverys
it /THE BAG/ became bigger than before...

very god,
this way we /humans / have always something to looking for...
however contemporary, all what we know about "another side"
is /in grams / weight of our soul

meditation is still only way to make close encouner
like it or not
empty your cup 1st
there is no another way...

[wiesiek]

aha
and
choice is as always,.. you know were

[wiesiek]

+
to be absolutly clear -i do not belive in God
or
it was GoodYear?..