principle v. technique

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

principle v. technique

Postby Tom on Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:32 pm

. . . or, Kevin Secours unchained. 8-)

Another good MA blog:

http://montrealsystema.blogspot.com/

July 17, 2010

Combat Systema: Principle vs. Technique

There is a popular descriptive used to distinguish Russian Systema from other martial arts that goes like this:

"We're principle-based. We don't believe in technique."

This is a classic example of something getting lost along the way in translation. Granted, this notion varies a bit from camp to camp. Kadochnikov and Retuinskih for example are scientifically precise and extremely technical in everything that they teach. How they interpret those principles varies significantly, with Retuinskih exhibiting far more pressure testing through jacketed wrestling, modified boxing and generally more contact and Kadochikov floudering in my opinion somewhat in the excesses of soft and slow exploration. Ryabko Systema by comparison has migrated increasingly away from any structured specifics, committing more fully to an intuitive path of self-exploration. Verily, the distinguishing factors between Ryabko Systema and Kadochnikov is the difference between faith and science. But does this need to be the case? Does creating a matrix for learning based on sound principles necessarily mean that technique must be shunned like a leper at a game of twister?

Why does a style stray from teaching technique? Is it a question of instructors teaching at their current level and forgetting the steps they took to get there? Is it a question of laziness? Is it a question of intentionally burning bridges to prevent students from understanding how to acquire the fullest possible ability--the ancient habit of hiding secret knowledge? Perhaps it's a combination of many motives. Even if it were nothing more than the pure belief that technique in any form were some form of distraction from true adaptability and learning, we are left with Infinite Monkey Theory--eventually a room full of monkeys, typing on an infinite number of typewriters, should logically create a work of literature equivalent to that of Shakespeare.

The problem with this approach is that we do not have infinite amounts of time or resources. If I need to teach someone how to use a gun and I put 5 people in one room and let them play and 5 in another room and teach them basic safety procedures, handling skills and the finer points of shooting, I am likely to not only have a faster learning curve in the instructed room, I am also far more likely to have 5 people come out alive. The fact is, some degree of technique is necessary. So often, I encounter Systema people who don't know the first thing about applying a lock who in return spout: "If you lock another, you lock yourself". That's true. There is a risk in lockng that you become static and prone to multiple attackers, but if you are a law enforcement officer or security agent or simply a civillian concerned with less than lethal control options, you need to know how to put on a few basic locks, a basic choke etc. Once you have the foundation, then you can focus on continuous movement, when to abandon it, how to intensify it, etc. I see Systema practitioners practicing ground defense against people who couldn't earn a white belt in BJJ, practicing kick defense against people who have trouble standing on one leg and working against "boxers" who are simply their chums wearing boxing gloves. There needs to be a little more concrete in the foundation in my opinion otherwise we'll soon find ourselves posting fights with our drunken uncles on youtube.

Technique is not a bad word. There are best ways to throw a punch, specific nuances that should be known about locks and holds, tactics that work best against specific situations. To simply float on the current of "principality" is to hide from the need for specificity and certainty. I have seen across the world what only investing in flow at the expense of core technique can do--it can create a mass of delusional individuals who think that wiggling and breathing is enough. You wouldn't trust a surgeon to just follow their intuition. You would expect that they had learned specific techniques and approaches but then transcended to the point where they can adapt. You would expect a musician to know how to play basic notes and riffs, perhaps cover other songs, before they could jam. You would expect a pilot to understand basic operating procedures before you would expect them to be able to handle a crisis. Why should we expect anything different from something as essential as the skills needed to protect our own lives.

Some degree of technique will always be necessary. Principles are the glue that holds them all together in one coherent direction, that explains how they work and deepens our understanding of them. Techique is the bridge to trancendence and the path to intuition. Balancing both the intuitive with the specific, faith with fact, technique with principle, is the key to excellence.
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Re: principle v. technique

Postby johnwang on Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:46 pm

After you have many women in your life (technique), you will know that all women are alike (principle). You have to have that experience (technique) first before you can draw that conclusion (principle). For a 12 years old to talk about "all women are alike", it will be just empty words. The fact is after you have your experience (technique), the "principle" will be just "common sense" and you may not even want to talk about it.
Last edited by johnwang on Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: principle v. technique

Postby yusuf on Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:55 pm

everything is a technique... even linguistics .. :)
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Re: principle v. technique

Postby Chris_McKinley on Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:16 pm

john,

I believe that's the first time I've read something of yours that convinced me you actually do know what principle and technique really are and how the whole "this versus that" argument is a false one. I mentioned recently on another thread that principle always follows technique, just as theory follows practice. What you're saying here seems to be saying the same thing. The day you and I agree on this subject is something I didn't think I'd see.

RE: "The fact is after you have your experience (technique), the "principle" will be just "common sense" and you may not even want to talk about it.". True enough. Or, sometimes you could go the other way and you may simply reference the principle when you're talking about it so that you no longer have to rattle off 127 different techniques just to make a point. Sometimes, for the sake of certain conversations, a round punch is a round punch is a round punch. Sure there may be small but important differences between them, but sometimes it doesn't matter which specific kind of round punch (i.e., technique) you're talking about if you're just making a point about round punches in general (i.e., principle). Then again, sometimes it does matter which one, if you're having a conversation comparing two different round punches, for example.

It's all really a function of what level of detail or generality at which you're having the discussion.
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Re: principle v. technique

Postby xXZetaBrownXx on Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:49 pm

very good read.
reminds me of a teacher's thoughts of the yin and yang principals in xingyi.
everything must be balanced...
i am reading this very loosely though so to me it seems to be able to translate into a many of things.

thanks,
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Re: principle v. technique

Postby Ralteria on Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:54 pm

Technique is not a bad word. There are best ways to throw a punch, specific nuances that should be known about locks and holds, tactics that work best against specific situations. To simply float on the current of "principality" is to hide from the need for specificity and certainty. I have seen across the world what only investing in flow at the expense of core technique can do--it can create a mass of delusional individuals who think that wiggling and breathing is enough. You wouldn't trust a surgeon to just follow their intuition. You would expect that they had learned specific techniques and approaches but then transcended to the point where they can adapt. You would expect a musician to know how to play basic notes and riffs, perhaps cover other songs, before they could jam. You would expect a pilot to understand basic operating procedures before you would expect them to be able to handle a crisis. Why should we expect anything different from something as essential as the skills needed to protect our own lives.


I like this thought process a lot. Once you can derive the principle from good technique it opens the practitioner up as far as options go. Form to formlessness, in a way. Being able to access an applied principle allows for a more spontaneous application. But the only way to have that principle in the body is to have it burnt in so to speak by using techniques that demonstrate that principle.

To keep this from being a simple regurgitation of what was said, I think it's important to not go too far the other way, also. People can get locked in technique to the point of rigidity. Damn Yin-Yang thingy :P
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Re: principle v. technique

Postby Fubo on Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:12 pm

Great blog entry.
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Re: principle v. technique

Postby Bhassler on Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:59 pm

Chris_McKinley wrote:It's all really a function of what level of detail or generality at which you're having the discussion.


There's also the question of domain. I can improve someone's form with an approach based on technique (this part does movement A exactly when that part does movement B, and make sure they are at exactly Y angle) or via principle (maintain this geberal relationship between parts A and B respective to gravity, and note there's a finite range where this relationship holds true). All of this is respective to form. If I want to fight, I have to address a different set of principles and techniques. Although the form/movement principles and techniques are relevant, they are just a subset of fighting, because fighting involves a more complex system (two or more people) than form (one person).

The more closely a person can frame the context for submodalities (form, conditioning, sparring, push hands, etc.) relative to a single outcome (competition, health, fighting, lin kong jin chi blasts, etc.)--thereby bringing all aspects of training into a single clear and specific domain-- the more intelligently that person will be able to apply and generalize skills gained from any given practice method.
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Re: principle v. technique

Postby MartialDev on Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:14 pm

Chris_McKinley wrote:I believe that's the first time I've read something of yours that convinced me you actually do know what principle and technique really are and how the whole "this versus that" argument is a false one. I mentioned recently on another thread that principle always follows technique, just as theory follows practice...


Please list the three most important principles by which you live your life, and the techniques they came from.
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Re: principle v. technique

Postby Steve Rowe on Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:43 am

Principles have to be expressed through technique. We have to practice techniques to learn the underlying principles that pervade all of them. When the underlying principles are fully understood and can be applied all the time then everything we do becomes a technique.

What would you call a 'principle'?

I'd say correct:

Mindset
Breathing
Postural alignment
Internal connection
Power sourcing

Because they have to be contained in any good technique in any martial art. In my art we also include use of feet, spiraling and use of the 'wedge'.
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Re: principle v. technique

Postby GrahamB on Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:28 am

Awesome use of "Verily" in the first paragraph. The bard would be proud.

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Re: principle v. technique

Postby paranoidandroid on Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:34 am

My view: In most cases ´principle` and ´technique` are interchangeable. Meaning in the technique is the principle or the technique is the principle.
There are systems that mean by ´principle` something more general. e.g. attributes and how to move the body most efficent. A technique then would be the principle how to move your body in a certain context. When someone means principle is more important then technique, I think he means: Having developed your attributes and know how your body moves the most efficent way(what are the most useful angles, how do I move not to hurt myself(range of motion)..., how can I coordinate my shoulders with my hips and feet) is more important then a techinque( a principle for a specific situation). Nowadays I think you need both, because even when you know how to move your body you still have to practice the specific movement to make it better. But if you only know technique you will always be a slave.

Its like knowing only formulas for specific contexts but not understanding the structure of mathematics.
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Re: principle v. technique

Postby Tesshu on Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:19 am

Steve Rowe wrote:Principles have to be expressed through technique. We have to practice techniques to learn the underlying principles that pervade all of them. When the underlying principles are fully understood and can be applied all the time then everything we do becomes a technique.



Yes, thank you!

and:

Tom wrote:. . . or, Kevin Secours unchained. 8-)

Another good MA blog:

http://montrealsystema.blogspot.com/

July 17, 2010

Combat Systema: Principle vs. Technique


Some degree of technique will always be necessary. Principles are the glue that holds them all together in one coherent direction, that explains how they work and deepens our understanding of them. Techique is the bridge to trancendence and the path to intuition. Balancing both the intuitive with the specific, faith with fact, technique with principle, is the key to excellence.


Yes and no. I think not technique is the bridge but principles are. Technique is just the boots you walk in when crossing that bridge.
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Re: principle v. technique

Postby paranoidandroid on Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:40 am

Techique is the bridge to trancendence and the path to intuition.


lol Heidegger and Hegel would agree for sure. ;D :P :-X
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Re: principle v. technique

Postby Chris_McKinley on Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:21 am

MartialDev,

Your request uses a definition for the term principle (moral) that is out of the context for which I made my assertion. I was using the conceptual definition of the term. Recall, I wrote, "...principle always follows technique, just as theory follows practice.". The narrower context, the one that applies to this discussion which is about martial practice, is the one in which principle always follows technique. This concept is considered axiomatic in the field of learning theory, just for perspective. The broader context is that theory follows practice. Now, in that broader sense, one might adopt certain moral (not conceptual) principles with which to live one's life. Those moral principles will have been based on the actual empirical experience of others who have lived either according to those principles or in opposition to them. It is the collective cultural understanding of the consequences of one set of behaviors over another that gives rise to the codification of principles in the moral sense of the term.
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