Xingyiquan for combat

[chud]

Do not think of techniques, but of energies. Focusing just on a technique is finite. Focusing on the energy trained is infinite:
Pi- Downward energy
Tsuan - Rising / drilling
Beng - Forward
Pao - Inside - out
Heng - Outside - in

Animals are simply amalgamations of the energies.

Cheers
JAB

Good post JAB, well said.

"Learn the form, master the form, forget the form..." but learn and master the form first!

True dat!!!

[JAB]

Cerebus you misunderstand... I just meant not to limit oneself to a certain technique associated with a certain element.

Cheers
Jake

[GrahamB]

just let what pops out pop out. The other day my sparring partner punched at my face and I just did Snake in a way I've never used it before

So, you're saying that when your partner punched you, your snake "just popped out"?!

It's true. I just could not contain my massive python.

[JAB]

More like a Garter snake

[brennanos]

I not really a Xingyiquan expert, I pretty much stopped at learning 5 elements fist, 12 animals, 3 hand cannons two man set, and 5 element 2 man set probably back in like 2001.

I do use Xingyiquan as my beginning warm-up for Baguazhang and Taijiquan practice.

However I concentrate mostly on some of the fists I think might actually work in combat:

pi- downward stop of a body punch or body kick
beng- counter to opponent strike
pao- block a high attack and counter punch
heng- weaved attack
tiger- offensive push/strike to opponents flank
horse- power strike to opponent
eagle-bear- powerful uppercut and downward strike
rooster-evasive footwork
water strider- evasive footwork

all others I consider less effective for combat-
tsuan (does make for a good grab and strike, but hard to use against a good striker)
dragon
monkey
swallow
snake
Tai bird

Are there a certain elements and animals you prefer? why?

Earth and Water are my two most automatic elements. I generally attack the eyes or throat with the lead hand to bait a response,
which mostly comes in the form of a parry which pushes the attack across my centerline at which time I execute Earth.
Water I use more often when in grappling range, basically any time either hand is free. I often do it as double element without
bothering to pull with other hand.

For animals, I use mostly snake, tiger, tai, and bear

Snake: stepping off center with a downward cutting parry with the bottom hand and "normal" parry with the top hand. I usually use this
in response to a front kick and try to scoop to leg and throw. Alternatively i just do it to get off the centerline because i prefer to work from
outside the opponents arms rather than coming straight up the middle.

Tiger: in grappling situations, if I can get outside the opponents arm on either side and control the elbow, I can twist their upper body to break their structure and then Tiger across their weak line. Ideally.

Tai: grappling, when I happen to have both hands free on the centerline. Perhaps if the opponent reaches up at any time with both hands, I step in with Tai. I often dont do the pull first, I do this when pulled. Same with Tiger.

Also, I often step in when pulled and strike explosively with the shoulder... in fact this is what I probably do most during free pushhands. Not sure what animal that would be.

EDIT: Oh, yeah.. Bear. Elbow chin na. This also happens at grappling range. I often get outside one arm or the other, and the opponent then turn to reach or strike with the other hand. I then drill and turn over, locking that elbow. This often turns into an infinite loop.
Brennan

[GrahamB]

More like a Garter snake

Blergh.

[cerebus]

Cerebus you misunderstand... I just meant not to limit oneself to a certain technique associated with a certain element.

Cheers
Jake

Ah, got it.

[Koah]

I not really a Xingyiquan expert, I pretty much stopped at learning 5 elements fist, 12 animals, 3 hand cannons two man set, and 5 element 2 man set probably back in like 2001.

I can't stress enough how much a beginner I am as well as how little I know. I did Xingyi three years ago for about a half a year. It was a secondary art to me, learning it at the same place although I liked it much more it was not much of a choice I had because I had been doing my Shoalin art for 2 years already. I learned much less then you. But the very distintion I experienced and got that this martial art wasn't meant to be used to spar with or to play around. When we practiced the 5 Functions we practiced it again and again to develop our Yi. Although the classmates as well as our development moved so slowly it was very obvious how our internal martial was being developed. The Funtions were solely practiced with keeping strongly in mind the element, the organ it is associated with. We never were allowed to play around with it in fighting and if we did we did we were to do just the form of the movements not the Yi. Very slowly it was introduced how some of the fighting could be put into the moves we learned. Although we learned moves much much faster without learning it's combat usage. From the way the teachers forbid us to use Xingyi to fight with and the way we were developing it in practice it was made extremely clear that this art is made for defeating your opponent. In my own experience of the little practice of Xingyi I learned I just don't understand how some people can talk about or claim how Xingyi as not a fighting art.

One of the nice thins about Xingyi is that it's all effective for combat.... if you know how to use it

I would consider the trainning I did in Xingyi wasn't serious trainning because that would include how much time and effort you put into it but I would consider the trainning as One Focused Concentration (completely and utterly focused on the purpose of each move) while Yi was used. Because I experience trainning like this I just don't understand how some people can even think that Xingyi isn't fighting, can't be used for fighting or how it doesn't seem effective.

[Ian]

Do not think of techniques, but of energies. Focusing just on a technique is finite. Focusing on the energy trained is infinite:
Pi- Downward energy
Tsuan - Rising / drilling
Beng - Forward
Pao - Inside - out
Heng - Outside - in

Animals are simply amalgamations of the energies.

Cheers
JAB

I DONT DO XINGYI BUT!

the above is how I understand it (theoretically).

e.g. pi can be a face mash, head takedown... beng can be a punch, an elbow break...

btw isn't pi up-down, and isn't beng forward-backward?

[bailewen]

Technically yes but the "up" part of Pi is "technically" a zuan. Pi incorporates zuan. And beng, sure there's gonna be incorporation of opposites but how pedantic do you wanna get? I think JAB's description is, as an old guitar teacher I knew used to say when tuning a guitar, "good enough for rock and roll".

[Teazer]

Technically yes but the "up" part of Pi is "technically" a zuan. Pi incorporates zuan. And beng, sure there's gonna be incorporation of opposites but how pedantic do you wanna get? I think JAB's description is, as an old guitar teacher I knew used to say when tuning a guitar, "good enough for rock and roll".

Admittedly I was thinking of mentioning the other directions involved in each element as well, then thought I couldn't be arsed
I do think it's relevant though since it defines the axis of rotation that's generating much of the power, as well as the effect on the other hand - which is why I personally prefer thinking of eg pi as rotating a ball forwards. Helped for me anyway.

[JAB]

Most of the elements can be found in each other, they are not necessarily mutually exclusive. But you cannot issue force (effectively) in two directions at the same time. So first you rise, then overturn, then fall into Pi. The rise is dzuan.
"Rise Drill
Overturn Fall"

Cheers
JAB

[Ian]

Jake and Omar,

Yeah I realized as soon as I'd posted. Other elements contain more than one direction as well.

Still, Su dongchen describes his pi as up-down, so maybe there's something to it. Personally I think for fighting the concept of opposite directions is pretty important, e.g. breakdown someone's guard before hitting, or pulling them down into an upward hit.

Anyway I agree with you guys about the energetic aspect of these movements vs. any specific technical usage.

[Fubo]

Jake's explanation also applies to the other IMA, as I understand them. Though specific forms have specific techniques (that need to be drilled) that relate to them you don't want to be focusing on any one specific technique throughout long form practice.

[kreese]

I learned the main 4 energies of Taiji in a similarly straight-forward manner. The simpler the concept, the easier it is to come up with variations. If the forms are two elaborate, the message may get lost.