Sun Baguazhang Redux

[D_Glenn]

I pulled my post off the thread that is now in 'been there done that'.

To the original question of hand position in Sun style:

Here's an idea: On the hand posture I believe in Sun style and the songs you have/use the 8 attack methods: tui,tuo, dai, ling, ban, kou, pi, and jin. Each attack has a posture and turning can/is done with the different postures. Ban/moving is a commonly seen posture- can't think of the chinese name but it is with both the wrists touching and palms open. The hardest jin to get and manifest is IMO the Pi/chopping, the posture looks like the guard posture only the hand is lower, the jin needs to get to the heel of the palm and emphasis is more intent to get the flow of qi to the heel of that inside palm. Pi/chop goes from fingers pointing forward to wrist dropping, fingers pulling back, chop through the heel of palm. Just an idea since it is the hardest jin to get and is understandable that it's good practice to 'turn' and spend more time in it's posture.

I was just skimming over some of the Sun Lutang songs and noticed that he has the 8 abilities/energies (ba neng) listed as ban, lan, jie, kou, tui, tou, dai, and ling. Not the first style to drop the pi and jin. Lan I believe is typically just the basic use of the 'guard posture' - 'stop the opponent position'. Jin is really just entering the inside door with the other seven methods but also has the idea of jie/intercepting and silmutaneously entering, also contains the practice of opposite foot and hand forward. Does Sun's Bagua make use of Pi/chopping?

Also would anyone be able to give a brief example of 'Lan' and 'Jie' as it is done in Sun style bagua?

Spring,

Did you ever learn the snake style 蛇形 from the kan trigram. It is easily reckognized with the 'double headed snake posture' 双头蛇缠身 which basically looks like one is carrying a baby in their arms. Also it contains the point striking as described in Sun's song?


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[Josealb]

D_Glenn....The Re-Animator!!!

[JAB]

Lan Jie means to intercept early. Kind of like stuffing a punch.
Jake

[D_Glenn]

Thanks for the reply. I know lanjie is often used in bagua and other styles to describe intercepting but in Sun's bagua song it specically names 'lan' and 'jie' as separate attacking methods or different qualities of using the "fists". It says 'lan' cuts off the opponents movement using a grinding/rubbing force at the opponents elbow. It says 'jie' suddenly or abruptly stops the opponents movement at the armpit or upperarm, or leg. Maybe I just answered my own question. Although those are just 2 different varieties of tui/pushing in our style.

Sun's song goes on to say that each of the 8 methods also has 8 variations making 64, so maybe the real question is how does one get 8 variations out of 'lan' and 8 out 'jie'?

[shawnsegler]

One of Luo's "Clever hands" vids and Marcus Brinkmans sanshou tape goes into those in some detail...even though it's not sun bagua.

S

[JAB]

D-
I think you just answered your own question. To intercept is going to be differently applied depending on the appendage, and angle of attack.
I am curious about your comment regarding the 64 combinations though!
Cheers
Jake

[D_Glenn]

Thanks Shawn,

I found them: 'Jie' is 3.3 in the houtians 'lan' is 3.4. As I kind of suspected 'jie' is, even in Gao, the equivalent of 進 'jin' possibly because the basic most jin strike is the jiejin strike.

I wonder if the 'pi' chopping strikes were dropped off in some of the bagua lineages because they thought it came from cross-training with xingyi.

[D_Glenn]

D-

I am curious about your comment regarding the 64 combinations though!
Cheers
Jake

That's what it says in the song: The 8 methods/energies (ba neng) contain inside them the 64 things, the 64 pairs of 8 trigrams... with qian on top, then the next and so on... Using the 8 principles of the 8 trigrams, they are so-called the 8 ban(moving strikes) the 8 kou (capturing strikes) and so on.

It doesn't say for sure in this song but I think it is arranged in a similar manner to our system. It says the 8 methods use the 8 ways of 'changing' that come from the 8 trigrams which would be a 'ban'moving strike useing qian-lianhuan/interlinking of techniques, then kan-shunshi/moving with the opponents momentum or force, then gen- beishen/ back of the body, then zhen-pingtuo/horizontally lifting, xun- fenglun/windmilling strikes, li-wo bu/ crouching down stepping(swallow enters the forest), kun- fanshen/ reversing the technique, and dui- bao/ embracing or gathering in. In our style though we are already occupying or standing in the place of one of the trigrams so there are only 7 other 'changes' or strategies to borrow with 1 dominating strategy, so it makes 8 methodsX 7 changes=56.


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[shawnsegler]

Hmmmmm....I need to math this out.

So, if lan is a supported twist that responds from the same appendage via roundness, then jie is the opposite with the transference between limbs rather than in the shape of one side of the frame. Turning with the point of issuance being on one side rather than the other....on either side, right? I think that makes eight...not sure.

S...and they're both variations of spc, right?

[shawnsegler]

so maybe the real question is how does one get 8 variations out of 'lan' and 8 out 'jie'?

You are round and neutralize on one side from the inside to the outside and vice versa and to front and back with either limb...and when you jie you transfer between limbs. I think....

S

[D_Glenn]

so maybe the real question is how does one get 8 variations out of 'lan' and 8 out 'jie'?

You are round and neutralize on one side from the inside to the outside and vice versa and to front and back with either limb...and when you jie you transfer between limbs. I think....

S

In bagua it's said there are 6 to 10 ways to apply every single move which would cover same hand forward outside to inside, then inside to outside, opposite hand forward with the same, then your own hand opposite your foot is the 6 basics ways for most strikes. In Sun's song it describes several ways for ban, and tui which for example in 'ban' (moving) there is double-handed moving strikes, single-handed moving strikes, separating double-hand moving strikes, moving with the backs of the palms or like in SPC moving with the arm, moving strikes done with the back of the palm under the legs, groin, tying-up moving strikes to break elbows... basically unlimited variations. Zhen trigram is in the east where the sun (yang) rises, it is the beginning growth of all things and is the start of 10,000 changes of baguazhang, it is the most variable and adaptable of the animals. 'Lan' is really just one technique, meeting the opponents arm at the elbow then using a rubbing/grinding force (best described as rolling dough with a rolling-pin, where you have to press with force while rolling at the same time) you threaten the face of the opponent to get their weight up (which is ping tuo (horizontally/steadily lifting)) or arm up, then 'change', the front hand is the back hand almost as soon as it touches. One possible variation (that is often seen) is as their weight goes up you tui/push or as Sun says to 'jie' strike to the armpit (thumb can press points) and continue their direction, the first hand typically moving down to their thigh/knee. Point being there aren't variations of of 'lan' or 'jie' for as soon as they 'change' it becomes one of the other six strikes.

Single Palm change is meet(lan tui/ stopping push strike), then ling/lead, then tuo/lift strike back the other direction, then ban/move strike which is the moving/tripping them over your leg while twisting, the end is/can be a pi/chop strike if the ban/move failed. The ending is the typical bagua pi/chopping strike posture.



Note - In Zhang's posture above the front hand represents the 'revolving chopping strike' while the back hand is not in the typical 'guard' posture where it is under the front elbow representing tui/pushing strike, but is instead in the 'dropping chopping strike' position.

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[shawnsegler]

I love bagua!



Best,

S