Gleason Internal Power

[xxxxx]

take it offline/to PM, this has been a good thread until now, don't spoil it

[emptycloud]

take it offline/to PM, this has been a good thread until now, don't spoil it

good call 5X.. practice is practice and upon that I think we can all agree...amen

thanks for the fun RSF hosts and goodnight..

enjoy your practice

peace

Rich

[WVMark]

All these posts over the last two days have been really informative and interesting to read. Trying to get back to the the initial thread, is it possible at this point to get back to what O-sensei was doing pre-war? I really liked Ellis Amdur's conclusions in "Hidden in Plain Sight" wherein he stated that we can train in IP/IMA with individuals such as Mr. Harden, Mr. Akuzawa or Mr. Sigman and transfer what we learn there to our aikido practice, but what we eventually end up with won't be O-sensei's aikido, it'll be our own. Any thoughts?

Yes, it is possible to get back to what O-sensei, Morihei Ueshiba, was doing pre-war. It's called Daito ryu. When you look at pre-war students, their scrolls are Daito ryu. Stan Pranin of Aikido Journal did the research. Kisshomaru from Tokyo branch of aikido did his best to either cover that fact up, hide it, or lie about it. The big name giants of aikido, Shioda, Tomiki, Shirata, Inoue, Mochizuki, etc all came from pre-war. After the war, some of those giants came back to Tokyo and chose not to stay there but go their own way. The training in Tokyo was too different. Today, if you want IP/aiki in your Daito ryu, one of the top choices would be Howard Popkin and Joe Brogna in the NYC area.

As for Ueshiba's aikido ... Ellis is splitting hairs. Of course, no one will ever, ever do the same thing that Ueshiba was doing with aikido. He personalized it just as he knew other people would do the same. Look at the lineage's of Tomiki, Shioda, Shirata, Mochizuki, etc and you can see they are different but Ueshiba still thought that his students were doing his kind of aikido. In that light, Ellis is very wrong. You can study IP/aiki and end up with O-sensei's aikido. Just like Ueshiba, Sagawa, Horikawa all did their own thing after learning IP/aiki from Takeda, they all were still doing the "aikido" of Takeda. So, too, after learning IP/aiki, someone can still be doing O-sensei's aikido. But, you can't learn IP/aiki from most of the Modern Aikido schools out there. Finally, Harden, Akuzawa, and Sigman are doing very different things. Consider people like them carefully because not all of them (and there are more), and Ellis is right in this, will get you to O-sensei's aikido. My advice would be to get out and get your hands on as many as you can so you can make your own informed, educated decision.

[WVMark]

All these posts over the last two days have been really informative and interesting to read. Trying to get back to the the initial thread, is it possible at this point to get back to what O-sensei was doing pre-war? I really liked Ellis Amdur's conclusions in "Hidden in Plain Sight" wherein he stated that we can train in IP/IMA with individuals such as Mr. Harden, Mr. Akuzawa or Mr. Sigman and transfer what we learn there to our aikido practice, but what we eventually end up with won't be O-sensei's aikido, it'll be our own. Any thoughts?

I feel that aikido or any art means different things to different people at different times of their lives. I feel that if you want to stick at the art for a lifetime then you have to make it your own in response to changes to ones shifting perceptions of self and world. After sometime I feel the form of the art is irrelevant, especially in aikido where one is I feel simply enhancing and making sublime, natural movement already embodied before any aikido was even considered as a study. This I feel is where the art differs from other arts. In tai chi you are perhaps making learnt movements natural, in aikido you are making natural movements only... So in a sense you own the art the very moment you decide the art is the one for you..

Rich aka empty cup of coffee

Unfortunately, the founder would disagree with you. Quite a few of the founder's students would disagree with you. Mochizuki is on record stating that when Ueshiba grabbed his wrist, he thought it would break from Ueshiba's power. Power. Other students stated that they would throw themselves on purpose because they didn't want Ueshiba to grab hold of them ... because of his power. Power. Some said it was like getting hit with lightning.

Then you have pre-war students talking about how training the joint locks like ikkyo, nikkyo, etc were NOT techniques but other kind of training. This means there was a training program to develop something other than learn techniques and it involved specific ways of training.

When asked why no one could do what Ueshiba could do, Ueshiba replied that it was because they didn't understand yin/yang. When Ueshiba's words were translated (one of the few times) and verified that the words were correct, it has been found that when Ueshiba said "kami", quite often he meant "ka" as fire and "mi" as water. In other words, yin/yang, and most definitely not the kami that are spirits/gods. Yet more pointing to training methods which are specific and quite old.

Ueshiba said his art was formless, but so did Takeda (his teacher), Sagawa (his peer), and Horikawa (his peer). All of them had specific training methods to develop the body for IP/aiki. Ueshiba also said that you couldn't do the soft flowing stuff until after years of training in the harder things. None of the training was "natural" or else a million other people would have the same skills.

There is way too much stuff out there that goes against how you view "aikido" ... until you get to Modern Aikido, a derivative from Kisshomaru Ueshiba (founder's son). Unfortunately, the world changed/altered what aikido truly was into something else. Now, aikido fits every definition from every person in every situation for everything. Which, when you think about it, is impossible.

[cloudz]

Yeah, I heard those kinds of things too. All from people who had never been to grad school. I learned how to work hard and actually think here and I am surrounded by the smartest, most capable people I have ever met. Not many people can live up to that standard of accountability, that's for sure. It would wreck the MA world.

I have my own personal standards and I think everyone who does martial arts as a hobby (most of us), has a right to adhere to their own. So mine might agree with yours, but that's besides the point. Combat sport may be one standard, but I don't really know what other you may mean. Nevertheless this idea of trying to enforce standards on people doing a hobby is ridiculous. If you do martial arts (TMA/ self defence) as a profession then maybe you should expect your standard to be compared or discussed and judgements made, but that's maybe as far as it needs to go or should go.

[emptycloud]

All these posts over the last two days have been really informative and interesting to read. Trying to get back to the the initial thread, is it possible at this point to get back to what O-sensei was doing pre-war? I really liked Ellis Amdur's conclusions in "Hidden in Plain Sight" wherein he stated that we can train in IP/IMA with individuals such as Mr. Harden, Mr. Akuzawa or Mr. Sigman and transfer what we learn there to our aikido practice, but what we eventually end up with won't be O-sensei's aikido, it'll be our own. Any thoughts?

I feel that aikido or any art means different things to different people at different times of their lives. I feel that if you want to stick at the art for a lifetime then you have to make it your own in response to changes to ones shifting perceptions of self and world. After sometime I feel the form of the art is irrelevant, especially in aikido where one is I feel simply enhancing and making sublime, natural movement already embodied before any aikido was even considered as a study. This I feel is where the art differs from other arts. In tai chi you are perhaps making learnt movements natural, in aikido you are making natural movements only... So in a sense you own the art the very moment you decide the art is the one for you..

Rich aka empty cup of coffee

Unfortunately, the founder would disagree with you. Quite a few of the founder's students would disagree with you. Mochizuki is on record stating that when Ueshiba grabbed his wrist, he thought it would break from Ueshiba's power. Power. Other students stated that they would throw themselves on purpose because they didn't want Ueshiba to grab hold of them ... because of his power. Power. Some said it was like getting hit with lightning.

Then you have pre-war students talking about how training the joint locks like ikkyo, nikkyo, etc were NOT techniques but other kind of training. This means there was a training program to develop something other than learn techniques and it involved specific ways of training.

When asked why no one could do what Ueshiba could do, Ueshiba replied that it was because they didn't understand yin/yang. When Ueshiba's words were translated (one of the few times) and verified that the words were correct, it has been found that when Ueshiba said "kami", quite often he meant "ka" as fire and "mi" as water. In other words, yin/yang, and most definitely not the kami that are spirits/gods. Yet more pointing to training methods which are specific and quite old.

Ueshiba said his art was formless, but so did Takeda (his teacher), Sagawa (his peer), and Horikawa (his peer). All of them had specific training methods to develop the body for IP/aiki. Ueshiba also said that you couldn't do the soft flowing stuff until after years of training in the harder things. None of the training was "natural" or else a million other people would have the same skills.

There is way too much stuff out there that goes against how you view "aikido" ... until you get to Modern Aikido, a derivative from Kisshomaru Ueshiba (founder's son). Unfortunately, the world changed/altered what aikido truly was into something else. Now, aikido fits every definition from every person in every situation for everything. Which, when you think about it, is impossible.

I am supposed to be retired from this thread. A universal definition for all styles of Aikido is practice. If you practice and reflect on practice then that's a wonderful way to understand what aikido is . Practice and history crumbles. - Rich

[allen2saint]

Lol...says the guy who just abstracted Aikido to the most espoteric and erudite deconstructions I have ever heard? Says the guy who a few posts ago was going on and on about his own little self indulgent diatribe on how it all was Aikido somehow? So, what you're really trying to say is, it's all Aikido as long as it fits into your experience and your opinions, right? If its someone else's then it's simply not "real" to you.

My professors have done more real work and know their work better than you will ever dream of. What do you think academic work is? Living and breathing with your subject day by day. Please go back to your cup and your relational dynamics.

hey Allen,

I am only made up of experience and opinion of that experience. This apparent " I " is manifest through relational dynamics of stuff I experience as apparently not I

Aikido (I feel) allows us to access an experience where the sense of I resists not the stuff it would normally consider not " I ". Its interesting stuff for some.

enjoy your studies - stay cool

Rich aka empty

Dude, just stop the pontificating already. I have sifted through all the soft pseudo intellectual mumbo jumbo I care to get to.

There are a lot of people here who are willing to discuss the art in an objective and concrete manner and I think they are contributing to the conversation, not sucking the air out of it.

[GrahamB]

The eternal cycle of the lion and the lamb.

Guy trains hard with lions, becomes a lion! Becomes so good he can do it by being soft and using minimum effort. Teaches this soft lamb way because its obviously superior. None of the new lamb students really get it. Founder dies. Lamb students realise nobody has it and go back to find what the founder did originally to get that good. Turns out it was to train like a lion with other lions!

Isn't that the way of all martial arts?

[allen2saint]

I think you nailed it. It happens in all arts. I heard Robert Duvall talking the same line about how you don't need to study with this or that person to be truthful as an actor, but that's him talking after he has studied with everyone under the sun and formed a huge body of work. He's a master.

Formlessness is a croc until you've worked like a dog so long the form is built in.

[Kettlebells4U]

The eternal cycle of the lion and the lamb.

Guy trains hard with lions, becomes a lion! Becomes so good he can do it by being soft and using minimum effort. Teaches this soft lamb way because its obviously superior. Non of the new lamb students really get it. Founder dies. Lamb students realise nobody has it and go back to find what the founder did originally to get that good. Turns out it was to train like a lion with other lions!

Best post in this thread

[emptycloud]

The eternal cycle of the lion and the lamb.

Guy trains hard with lions, becomes a lion! Becomes so good he can do it by being soft and using minimum effort. Teaches this soft lamb way because its obviously superior. Non of the new lamb students really get it. Founder dies. Lamb students realise nobody has it and go back to find what the founder did originally to get that good. Turns out it was to train like a lion with other lions!

Isn't that the way of all martial arts?

aren't martial arts simply a response to lifes problems..? isn't life just one problem after another...? is a martial art only good for ruffing up hooligans or does its purpose change to meet change..?

practice is practice...

[emptycloud]

I think you nailed it. It happens in all arts. I heard Robert Duvall talking the same line about how you don't need to study with this or that person to be truthful as an actor, but that's him talking after he has studied with everyone under the sun and formed a huge body of work. He's a master.

Formlessness is a croc until you've worked like a dog so long the form is built in.

emptiness is form, form is emptiness - whether you work like dog or not... whether you think it is or not..

Practice is practice...my new mantra. Like it..?

Rich - semi retired threader..

[allen2saint]

Oh, I do. I like it as in "I like it because it reinforces everything I just said about your pretentiousness and intellectual dishonesty."

[AllanF]

Unfortunately, the founder would disagree with you. Quite a few of the founder's students would disagree with you. Mochizuki is on record stating that when Ueshiba grabbed his wrist, he thought it would break from Ueshiba's power. Power. Other students stated that they would throw themselves on purpose because they didn't want Ueshiba to grab hold of them ... because of his power. Power. Some said it was like getting hit with lightning.

Then you have pre-war students talking about how training the joint locks like ikkyo, nikkyo, etc were NOT techniques but other kind of training. This means there was a training program to develop something other than learn techniques and it involved specific ways of training.

When asked why no one could do what Ueshiba could do, Ueshiba replied that it was because they didn't understand yin/yang. When Ueshiba's words were translated (one of the few times) and verified that the words were correct, it has been found that when Ueshiba said "kami", quite often he meant "ka" as fire and "mi" as water. In other words, yin/yang, and most definitely not the kami that are spirits/gods. Yet more pointing to training methods which are specific and quite old.

Ueshiba said his art was formless, but so did Takeda (his teacher), Sagawa (his peer), and Horikawa (his peer). All of them had specific training methods to develop the body for IP/aiki. Ueshiba also said that you couldn't do the soft flowing stuff until after years of training in the harder things. None of the training was "natural" or else a million other people would have the same skills.

There is way too much stuff out there that goes against how you view "aikido" ... until you get to Modern Aikido, a derivative from Kisshomaru Ueshiba (founder's son). Unfortunately, the world changed/altered what aikido truly was into something else. Now, aikido fits every definition from every person in every situation for everything. Which, when you think about it, is impossible.

Yes, it is possible to get back to what O-sensei, Morihei Ueshiba, was doing pre-war. It's called Daito ryu. When you look at pre-war students, their scrolls are Daito ryu. Stan Pranin of Aikido Journal did the research. Kisshomaru from Tokyo branch of aikido did his best to either cover that fact up, hide it, or lie about it. The big name giants of aikido, Shioda, Tomiki, Shirata, Inoue, Mochizuki, etc all came from pre-war. After the war, some of those giants came back to Tokyo and chose not to stay there but go their own way. The training in Tokyo was too different. Today, if you want IP/aiki in your Daito ryu, one of the top choices would be Howard Popkin and Joe Brogna in the NYC area.

As for Ueshiba's aikido ... Ellis is splitting hairs. Of course, no one will ever, ever do the same thing that Ueshiba was doing with aikido. He personalized it just as he knew other people would do the same. Look at the lineage's of Tomiki, Shioda, Shirata, Mochizuki, etc and you can see they are different but Ueshiba still thought that his students were doing his kind of aikido. In that light, Ellis is very wrong. You can study IP/aiki and end up with O-sensei's aikido. Just like Ueshiba, Sagawa, Horikawa all did their own thing after learning IP/aiki from Takeda, they all were still doing the "aikido" of Takeda. So, too, after learning IP/aiki, someone can still be doing O-sensei's aikido. But, you can't learn IP/aiki from most of the Modern Aikido schools out there. Finally, Harden, Akuzawa, and Sigman are doing very different things. Consider people like them carefully because not all of them (and there are more), and Ellis is right in this, will get you to O-sensei's aikido. My advice would be to get out and get your hands on as many as you can so you can make your own informed, educated decision.

Excellent posts Mark!

[emptycloud]

Oh, I do. I like it as in "I like it because it reinforces everything I just said about your pretentiousness and intellectual dishonesty."

thank you..