More Sweet Brinkman-y Goodness.

[Ian]

In the image above the 4 quadrants of the body are clear to be seen and i number them from left to right as you look at it, top; 1,2 bottom; 3,4

Regarding your planes of movement diagram:


1. If three planes intersect the body, you get eight octants, not four quadrants. You're imagining something like this:



When in fact it would be something like this:



In order for you to get four quadrants, you'd have to only consider the saggital and transverse planes, and ignore the coronal plane.


2. Those planes are simplifications of movement lines. There's nothing inside the body which physically divides it that way.

Consequently, there's no reason to think of movement in terms of cubes containing body parts.

That may be the way you think, it's not the way the body 'thinks'.


------------------------


I'm not saying your practice is wrong, btw.

And at the end of the day...

Unless you and I can use our theories successfully against guys in our respective weight classes at the highest level, it's all bs anyway

[windwalker]

That may be the way you think, it's not the way the body 'thinks'.

I find this statement quite interesting.
would not a training involve realigning the perceptions
of the body to achieve a certain function that remains theory
until achieved?

nice illustrations btw

[Ian]

would not a training involve realigning the perceptions
of the body to achieve a certain function that remains theory
until achieved?

Well... you'd want to verify that it's ontologically possible, and not contradicting the body's innate parameters first.

I.e. is it possible? Is it useful?

Extreme example - some guys believe they can ejaculate up their spine and into their brain.

Less extreme example - some guys believe you should never move your head.



It seems that a better use of one's time would be to study biomechanics, body reflexes etc. and learn to maximise one's innate abilities (move the way the body wants to move) in the context of fighting. 

Wikipedia:

The stretch reflex (myotatic reflex) is a muscle contraction in response to stretching within the muscle. It is a monosynaptic reflex which provides automatic regulation of skeletal muscle length.

When a muscle lengthens, the muscle spindle is stretched and its nerve activity increases. This increases alpha motor neuron activity, causing the muscle fibers to contract and thus resist the stretching. A secondary set of neurons also causes the opposing muscle to relax. The reflex functions to maintain the muscle at a constant length.

[AllanF]

Ian the way you are describing of moving is indeed the way that the majority of people, sportsmen/women and martial artist move. No argument there.

However, the whole point of IMA is re-wire the body to move in a manner that is it not prescribed to do so. It is counter-intuitive and therefore needs people to take a step away from what they already know. Failure to be able to do that means it will become all the more difficult/if not impossible to grasp the concepts of what we are trying to achieve, simply because you'll be trying to fit a square peg into a round whole.

As i have said to you before, go and see someone who can demonstrate why this is different, as that can test your theories. In closing i will say this, why was is that in the times when these arts (IMA, Baguazhang, Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, Daito Ryu etc.) were created, did warriors already skilled in the arts of combat, who had in some cases killed people in combat/wars, seek out some, at often times, men well below their "weight class" (e.g. Takeda Sokaku)? Was it to learn a new throw or lock or to improve their reflexes? Or was it because they moved in a way and had a power that the orthodox theories could not replicate?

How you approach your training is up to you and i wish you well.

[Bao]

@escher: Thank you for publishing Marcus response and thanks Marcus for taking time to respond.

However, the whole point of IMA is re-wire the body to move in a manner that is it not prescribed to do so. It is counter-intuitive and therefore needs people to take a step away from what they already know. Failure to be able to do that means it will become all the more difficult/if not impossible to grasp the concepts of what we are trying to achieve, simply because you'll be trying to fit a square peg into a round whole.

Well, I would answer both yes and no to that. It's true that it's about to learn how to use the body in a special manner, correct. And yes, "It is counter-intuitive and therefore needs people to take a step away from what they already know." But I would object to learn to "move in a manner that is it not prescribed to do so". I believe it is. From a Daoist/neidan perspective it's about returning to the state you were born with, learning to move and act just like you did when you were a child. This is why the internal arts speak about "pre-heaven"/pre-natal exercises and why Sun Lutang wrote about developing and using "pre-heaven qi". This is why we speak about "natural movements". So we re-learn our body movements to become natural again, something we lost in childhood, the vitality of youth, which is something our arts tell us that we can achieve once again.

[middleway]

I think there is a very simple problem here and as always its one of identification/classification.

1) the 'internal arts' that most people here identify with that label.
2) the 'internal arts' that a small group identify with that label.

I think we are better served to talk about merit, content and functionality of a method shown rather than worrying about the labels or even if it adheres to our own dogma.

Just my thought on this.

As for the methods on show, i think it is obvious that Marcus knows his stuff. Thanks for posting the videos for people to see it.

thanks
Chris.

[windwalker]

I think we are better served to talk about merit, content and functionality of a method shown rather than worrying about the labels or even if it adheres to our own dogma

its not dogma, if one can do it or has been exposed to it.
whats presented is based on different experience that then gets questioned as being dogma,
by those who cant do it, or have not been exposed to it.

However, the whole point of IMA is re-wire the body to move in a manner that is it not prescribed to do so. It is counter-intuitive and therefore needs people to take a step away from what they already know. Failure to be able to do that means it will become all the more difficult/if not impossible to grasp the concepts of what we are trying to achieve, simply because you'll be trying to fit a square peg into a round whole.

which is why many have problems with labels and such, Because they feel they already know it

[Wanderingdragon]

@escher: Thank you for publishing Marcus response and thanks Marcus for taking time to respond.

However, the whole point of IMA is re-wire the body to move in a manner that is it not prescribed to do so. It is counter-intuitive and therefore needs people to take a step away from what they already know. Failure to be able to do that means it will become all the more difficult/if not impossible to grasp the concepts of what we are trying to achieve, simply because you'll be trying to fit a square peg into a round whole.

Well, I would answer both yes and no to that. It's true that it's about to learn how to use the body in a special manner, correct. And yes, "It is counter-intuitive and therefore needs people to take a step away from what they already know." But I would object to learn to "move in a manner that is it not prescribed to do so". I believe it is. From a Daoist/neidan perspective it's about returning to the state you were born with, learning to move and act just like you did when you were a child. This is why the internal arts speak about "pre-heaven"/pre-natal exercises and why Sun Lutang wrote about developing and using "pre-heaven qi". This is why we speak about "natural movements". So we re-learn our body movements to become natural again, something we lost in childhood, the vitality of youth, which is something our arts tell us that we can achieve once again.

And simply enough there you have it, the natural strength and protectivity of the fetal posture, baby's first breaths, bangs first steps, all of which speak to the universal postures prescribed by ALL internal if not ALL martial arts, thats it, to reach this level of achievement is to never compromise such a posture, our goal.

[middleway]

Windwalker. You missed my point. Saying 'it's' not this or that isn't helpful if you don't say what 'it' is (according to your understanding).

I am just saying take off the Ima hat... Look at the video, review the merits. Isn't that a better approach than 'that's not internal .... Or words to that effect. If there are no merits that's an equally valid discussion.

Just my thoughts ...

which is why many have problems with labels and such, Because they feel they already know it

It seems you feel you already know it.

Happy training.

[aiasthewall]

Not sure why no one has responded to Marcus's reply, but I for one thought it was a good one.

Thank you.

[NoSword]

I thought so as well -- I was going to speak up on his behalf, but he (and other posters) did so more eloquently than I could have.

The man definitely has to be felt to be believed. Calling him out on very basic Dr. Seuss Mother Goose stuff like "shoulders down" (when he is obviously achieving his intended effect quite nicely) is like criticizing a concert pianist for not adhering to the scale fingerings you learn in Hanon and Czerny. It could be that the reason we don't understand some of what he is doing, is that he is operating on a very different level from most posters here.

No offense intended to Allan, WD etc. -- just saying that whatever quirks there might be in his form, his actual ability is pretty unimpeachable in my book.

With regards to the video, I'm pleased that Marcus found a production team that can do some justice to his skill and his knowledge. I haven't seen him for maybe five years, and it's cool to see that his gongfu's continued to grow beyond what I encountered then. I learned a LOT from watching this.

AK

[chud]

Regarding your planes of movement diagram:


1. If three planes intersect the body, you get eight octants, not four quadrants.

AllanF's diagram does show eight octants if you look at it; there are 4 above the transverse plane and 4 below.
Your multi-colored eight octant diagram that you posted is basically the same thing.
I actually like both diagrams, yours for numbering the octants and his for labeling the planes that create those octants.

Also:
Moderators: What happened to my previous post in this thread? It seems to have been removed, along with the post I replied to. Why?

[Wanderingdragon]

No one questioned Mr. Brinkman's ability, I am sure he is skilled and experienced martial artist, personally, I know that a simplistic issue like shoulders strapping up around you neck is just not going to serve you well when dealing with one of equal skill, Mother goose as it is, it creates a broken structure that must be pulled together upon effort, a split second in time that one with equal or greater skill will make you pay for, it will cost you. Posture is key. But I am also quite comfortable with the fact that Bao offered the Taoist perspective of internal goals and reality, that make it clear the necessity of true posture. Finally, no matter how high level you are, there will always be your loyalists and your detractors, myself, if something vears off path logic will make me understand it's veracity.

[Simon]

I think this just another example of us all having varying definitions of what ima is. I have trained with many teachers in different IMA and for the most part it was often just a whole body approach to training and good mechanics. I met people more recently who showed me a very unintuitive approach which fits more with what I hear Bodywork describing. They are two very different types of training. I have trained with Marcus also in the past and can say he is excellent and anyone wanting to progress in the Gao Bagua should definately seek him out as a primary or additional teacher. He is very good.

But saying that what Marcus does and from what I have seen of all the Gao type practice none of it is what Bodywork or dare I say without knowing more what Windwalker is talking about.....IMO disclaimer

I think enjoy it for what is a fine display of the methods and tactics of Gao style by an expert in the system with very specific methods of training power but not nessecarily the fabled internal power as understood by some.

Edited for clarity due to crappy iPad mini keyboard.

[XiaoXiong]

As a long time Yi Zong guy I can say it's not. Yi Zong has internal stuff in it, but it's not teaching the same internal stuff as the internal stuff of Yang and Wu style taiji. The stuff I learned from the Yi Zong school is still very good, and all of it including the shoulder rolling can be done from the Dan tian, but it's not what i think Dan or other internal guys I know from Taiji are doing. It trains the same skills, but they aren't explained in the curriculum, and are not applied the "internal" way in practice. I had to get that stuff from taiji, and now I understand bagua A LOT better. No offense to anybody. Yi Zong is great. Great fighting and training, I love it. But in my opinion some things are definetly not present in the Yi Zong curriculum that are essential to internal skills, and none of the people I know of in Yi Zong including Luo are aware of them. I know this for a fact, take it as you will. Yi Zong is known for fighting, and it excels at that. But as Dan Harden himself said of his meeting with Luo, it's not the same as what I think he and I and Windwalker and others are calling internal.
Jess