Master Zhou - Xing Yi Snake applications

[jonathan.bluestein]

Please read the video description.

[Andy_S]

Some decent moves there and great to see your man showing some of his HsingI rather than Baji et al. But why did he stop working with Beefy and transition to Skinny? Demoing on a chunky geezer is always better than on a weedy one.

[jonathan.bluestein]

Some decent moves there and great to see your man showing some of his HsingI rather than Baji et al. But why did he stop working with Beefy and transition to Skinny? Demoing on a chunky geezer is always better than on a weedy one.

LOL! I think he wanted to demonstrate something specific and beefy wasn't getting into the right position for that application. It is very disappointing that we never had shifu's student Xiao Hei present when we took videos... Former Hebei heavyweight boxing champion, he is a petite giant at 6'5

[Andy_S]

Right, for your next production, I suggest:
Zhou vs Xiao (sanda or MMA rules).

Whaddya reckon?

[jonathan.bluestein]

Zhou would win cause he only needs to reach directly forward with his hand to grab that man's balls. But I have a better idea - how about Yang Luchan vs. Chen Fake? Or Cus D'Amato vs. Tyson?...

Guess what? Doesn't matter. If a huge dude who's a boxing champion like that comes to learn something from that small man, he must have figured he has something to learn. Shifu also has another big student, Shun Zi, who is a professional Sanda coach. He is about 5'10, former bodybuilder, probably weighs around 245lbs. Oh, and there is also my Israeli teacher's gongfu brother, who is 6'4.

[wayne hansen]

Pretty basic and clumsy

[NoSword]

His santishi looks very loose and double-weighted, reminds me more of a baji stance than a xingyi one. I know he can bust out a more 'biaojun' (standard) one from other videos of him, so I wonder if this is mostly question of the difference between practice and application, or of other MA habits coming out in his xingyi.

[jonathan.bluestein]

Sadly, I have to admit that it is on purpose. He never lets us film anything XYQ related. When demonstrating XYQ publicly he always omits several major things, and he did so on the video as well. What can I say? Silly traditionalism. He was asked by some of his teachers not to share publicly, and he does that for some things. Pretty annoying, actually. A few weeks ago we shot a video of him doing a Baji form which was way better than what we previously put on youtube. He immediately said: "don't put this online". These people, the local Chinese... Most of them live in China la la land, the imaginary world created by the communist party. They cannot read other languages and never got education beyond that available in their native tongue, not to mention decades of brainwashing. My Western mind is thinking: "get some 1000 awesome videos online so people would appreciate what you have". His Chinese mind is thinking: "online surfers will steal my art and claim it as their own, and then would copy it and produce DVDs and/or claim to have been my students". That shit did happen quite a few times in the West, but it is very uncommon on the whole. In China it is still common. People come to watch him from the bushes while he's teaching to steal his knowledge because their stupid 'face' habits won't allow them to be humble enough to approach him like god damn human beings and ask for instructions. Other teachers approach his Western students and try to convince them to become their students instead (experienced this myself). It's a man-eat-man world, where he lives. People are really that nasty over there, and from his limited point of view he has no reason to believe that online surfers would be/act otherwise. There are already videos of him taken from Youtube and posted on Chinese video websites, with different descriptions than the originals.

So because of all this cultural nonsense I have to watch him demonstrate stuff like that in a really sub-optimal way, and then have to explain to people it is not that simplistic-looking when taught in person... This is partly what drives me nuts about Chinese culture. Everyone are so dishonest about their intentions that even those who wish to be honest, direct and sincere cannot afford to. What a shame, really. =\

[Bob]

Sadly, I have to admit that it is on purpose. He never lets us film anything XYQ related. When demonstrating XYQ publicly he always omits several major things, and he did so on the video as well. What can I say? Silly traditionalism. He was asked by some of his teachers not to share publicly, and he does that for some things. Pretty annoying, actually. A few weeks ago we shot a video of him doing a Baji form which was way better than what we previously put on youtube. He immediately said: "don't put this online". These people, the local Chinese... Most of them live in China la la land, the imaginary world created by the communist party. They cannot read other languages and never got education beyond that available in their native tongue, not to mention decades of brainwashing. My Western mind is thinking: "get some 1000 awesome videos online so people would appreciate what you have". His Chinese mind is thinking: "online surfers will steal my art and claim it as their own, and then would copy it and produce DVDs and/or claim to have been my students". That shit did happen quite a few times in the West, but it is very uncommon on the whole. In China it is still common. People come to watch him from the bushes while he's teaching to steal his knowledge because their stupid 'face' habits won't allow them to be humble enough to approach him like god damn human beings and ask for instructions. Other teachers approach his Western students and try to convince them to become their students instead (experienced this myself). It's a man-eat-man world, where he lives. People are really that nasty over there, and from his limited point of view he has no reason to believe that online surfers would be/act otherwise. There are already videos of him taken from Youtube and posted on Chinese video websites, with different descriptions than the originals.

So because of all this cultural nonsense I have to watch him demonstrate stuff like that in a really sub-optimal way, and then have to explain to people it is not that simplistic-looking when taught in person... This is partly what drives me nuts about Chinese culture. Everyone are so dishonest about their intentions that even those who wish to be honest, direct and sincere cannot afford to. What a shame, really. =\

Very familiar with this mode of thought although I would not necessarily call it "cultural nonsense" - definitely sad as I have been in your position. However, I also can see the other side of the coin - many of us in the West think as though we are entitled to make everything free, open and available to all - we sometimes see ourselves as saviors on a mission to democratize information and knowledge.

Often times I forget that it is the master's experience/life (which, in my experience, they don't separate from their martial arts) and where do I get off telling him what he must reveal or not reveal about his life and knowledge to the public or for the sake of efficiency. I wouldn't stand for it if someone told me I have lay everything I know and learned on the table for the public or even for a private group of students to ravage and stuff their ego/narcissistic driven appetite for more and "look at me, how great am I".

No, this martial arts world is indeed a strange one full of egos and power drives for glory and fame; where it is hard to differentiate mine from others. Guilty I plead but desperately search for redemption.

There was a very famous six harmony master in Taiwan, a very bad-ass guy and his answer to those who begged him to pass on the material before he died was very simple: "I am taking it to the grave with me!"

Can't find where Robert Smith got the quote but he said, "One master said he wanted to leave this world with no footprints behind."

Although I have been in the position of begging to get information out like that described in the situation above, I kinda can now see where they might be coming from.

I am not the selfless scholar/practitioner who wants to save traditional martial arts for the world rather I am the insensitive conquistador who can't see the boundary between my needs and the needs of those whose life embodies the skills, training, sweat etc. etc. etc..

Yin/yang and reconciliation at its best!

BTW, this is simply a sharing of my experiences and not intended for anyone in particular. However, if the shoe fits, lace it up and join me at the altar of reconciliation next to the lamenting fountain of lost martial arts knowledge.

[allen2saint]

I think you bring up an interesting point, Bob. I've had a weird evolution from idealist and pacifist to something more practical and spiritual as I progress. The more sophisticated knowledge I learn( such as it is anyway), the less inclined I am to talk about it or explain it, because I do feel I've "earned" it. I used to want to teach everyone and now that I might actually do so out here, I am already mentally editing what I feel I "can" teach to people who I know will just see it as a hobby initially.

Yet, I bristle at the idea of breaking my ass for years only to find out I will never learn the good stuff because of how I look or because I'm not family, which has happened as well. So, I don't know...I think the reality is that, at it's best( and worst), MA is an unregulated art where individualism is king. You need to paw through a dense jungle of styles and teachers to find the person who will really take an interest and teach you. But I think teachers are also obligated to be open about their limitations and their inclinations when a new student comes in. I was led to believe I would "get the good stuff" from one teacher and never did, even after years. With another I was immiedately taught "the good stuff" on the very first class. So....

Re: Sifu Zhou,is it unrealistic to think that he may be excellent at one art and only pretty good at another? His other styles look incredible and this is...pretty good, which is still pretty good.

[Bob]

allen2saints:

That is an even tougher position in trying to decide whether one is being "taken" by the material given to you.

I actually had 2 or 3 teachers whose material was BS but I didn't know it at the time (no internet, no scholarly books).

Today I try to judge the material on how well it is grounded in the basics (structure & training modes) and am less concerned about the "advanced levels".

I am not going to rework Roger Ames's piece again but historically master's pick, choose and modify the material to their specific needs. Not even sure how to differentiate advanced from "magic". Gotta run but I feel your pain as it is often my own too.

[jonathan.bluestein]

Bob, these are indeed good points and I concur. With shifu, the problem is that there is demand for his videos - people contact us and ask for them, and then he cannot understand that Western mindset. He could definitely use more Western students (though he has a few every year), because he teaches for a living, but as a Chinese person he doesn't really know what Westerners are looking for before they come to him. The fact of the matter is that quite a few people had come to train with him over the years after watching him on youtube - meaning that this model works quite well.

The man knows many martial arts. He had 13 teachers. We cannot record even 10% of what he knows on video even if we filmed him for a month in a row non-stop. He can afford to share, but does not see the point. But there is a point to it. The man has no 'successor' for many of his arts. He really wants to take someone in for 10-20 years and teach him everything. He can't. There is no such person. My teacher stayed the longest - for 7 years, training every day.

But my Israeli voice and cultural background are shouting out loud in my brain. I come from a culture wherein sharing is a strong value. A very egalitarian culture. Among Jews, the other person being a Jew is enough of a reason to share... quite a lot. In China, for the most part what I have seen is the opposite by default - you never share or care, and when you do it is through a long process of getting to know someone and creating guanxi before it can happen fully and wholeheartedly.

I am happy that shifu shares a lot with us students, though. He never hides info from those who train hard. He is a very kind person... just overly conservative at times with certain things (like that picture on his blog with a Dao cutting through a bleeding Japanese flag... ).

Re: Sifu Zhou,is it unrealistic to think that he may be excellent at one art and only pretty good at another? His other styles look incredible and this is...pretty good, which is still pretty good.

Thanks This makes it all the more annoying though, because actually for XYQ he had the most teachers - four of them, and tudi under two of the four. He told my teacher that he got about 70% of his Nei Gong from just one of these XYQ teachers (and he had a total of 13!). Says a lot about that teacher...

[NoSword]

@Jonathan: It's unfortunate.

In China, for the most part what I have seen is the opposite by default - you never share or care, and when you do it is through a long process of getting to know someone and creating guanxi before it can happen fully and wholeheartedly.

There is some truth to what you are saying but I think you are painting with a rather broad brush. I have had Chinese people -- teachers and otherwise -- demonstrate unbelievably generous behavior toward me, without a thought of reciprocity.

Your teacher wrote in an article of his about the merits of finding a 'minjian' (folk) teacher. In my experience these sorts of teachers can be very open. If one seeks out a famous 'tough guy' instructor, one tends to pay retail for information.

AK

[nicklinjm]

First thing I wanted to say is: finally, some more of Zhou laoshi's xingyiquan! Very nice to see the qinna / throw + striking applications of snake demonstrated, especially the crotch strike!
Does Zhou laoshi practice a low version of snake as well?

As for the discussion re: conservatism, I would say that:
(i) I understand why teachers in the PRC are conservative, but conservatism is killing CMA and turning it into a hollow shell of itself
(ii) I too believe in sharing material, it alerts people that there is something more out there than what they have and makes them seek out more complete traditions
(iii) However, I don't think any teacher is under any obligation to share their 'core' training methods/neigong on video - if you want to know, the onus is on you to pay the teacher a visit and find out for yourself

Just my .02...

[edededed]

It's not easy, it may depend on luck - maybe one teacher will teach you Technique A after 10 years, while another will teach you on the first day.

I'm a bit bummed at CMA due to the conservatism to be honest! Nowadays, we can learn science for free online - sounds like a better use of time sometimes than trying to get secrets out of people...