Shi Chong Ying and Guo Shi Lei

[XiaoXiong]

v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTgzNzMwOTA0.html?x&from=y7.2-1-98.3.5-1.14-1-1-4
Couldn't get imbedding to work.
Jess

[XiaoXiong]

[NoSword]

This goes a long way toward answering the question I posed in the xingyi fajin thread. In an interactive situation (cooperative or otherwise), small and concealed movements are what get big effects on one's partner. Playing them large certainly has value for training and demonstration purposes, but the reality is much subtler and less dramatic than most people think.

AK

[wayne hansen]

Interesting the way they remain in back stance which gives them nowhere to go when the teacher attacks
Don't get me wrong I think he has skill

[XiaoXiong]

Shi is ridiculously skilled. Guo is very good too. You don't see this kind of internal stuff being shown so openly often. I've seen people say that Shi and Guo do demos that dont help anybody or whatever, but this is good stuff. They are begginers and they train bagua, so it's not a mystery that they remain in back stances. Shi is one of the best around today. I think I see more skill there than even Wang Pei Sheng had. I think it's pretty awesome that Guo is making so many videos. Really good stuff.
Jess

[willywrong]

It not that he's without skill its that his students are without skill.

[XiaoXiong]

I wouldn't be so sure. They have been practicing for a few years since this video was made. This was when he first began teaching. It doesn't mean much of anything to say that the students are cooperating. It's not really clear, and it's not a useful conversation in particular. If you look at his teacher Shi Chongying you see him tossing around people who look skilled to my eyes, as if they were clumsy weaklings with no athleticism or balance. The reason they look bad is because he's using internal skills and not because they are bad. It's hard to stop someone who has a lot of practice from doing this to you. Take it from me. Its not easy what they are doing.
Jess

[willywrong]

I wouldn't be so sure. They have been practicing for a few years since this video was made. This was when he first began teaching. It doesn't mean much of anything to say that the students are cooperating. It's not really clear, and it's not a useful conversation in particular. If you look at his teacher Shi Chongying you see him tossing around people who look skilled to my eyes, as if they were clumsy weaklings with no athleticism or balance. The reason they look bad is because he's using internal skills and not because they are bad. It's hard to stop someone who has a lot of practice from doing this to you. Take it from me. Its not easy what they are doing.
Jess

Jess I've been practising for 41 years so go have a look at me before you presume to teach me how to suck eggs.

[windwalker]

like many of things this teacher does and explains.
dont know about the skill or lack of by the students.
imo, they offer enough to allow the teacher to explain and show them
the skill he's demoing.

kinda amazed at the amount of useful info on the net these days.
also in the way the teacher is explaining it, many times things like
this are left to the students to figure out.

being able to figure it out being part of the process.

[Wanderingdragon]

Part of the process ? of finding a good teacher is all. Without this information the only way you figure it out is by fighting and taking some knocks. This information does not make fighter , but it surely gives you the proper tools. No excess of information just what many Tai Chi teachers don't have or offer... more than form

[windwalker]

Part of the process ?

it was part of the process where by either physically or mentally people where weeded out, not everyone can
can reach the higher levels of the art. In commercial schools it might be different.

I've had teachers that would show something if one was unable to get it, they would change it or in some cases
not teach it. it was up the student to get it. The same with explaining things, they might only say a word or comment.
it was expected that one would practice until an understanding by ability was reached, this might or might not be reinforced
with explanations.

I've met a lot of people who where really good at explaining things, understanding the theory but could not really
put what they understood or could explain to use.

the understanding they had was outside themselves.

[Andy_S]

I like the way the guy moves, and also like some of his explanation. His method of applying a bit of force in one direction, forcing an opponent response, then taking advantage of the response, is classic stuff and he applies it seamlessly.

There again: Would be good to see him doing it against someone who actually puts up a fight and is trying hard not to go down. Chen Zhiqiang, for example, takes on anyone and applies these concepts, but because he is doing it "for real" it looks a lot less tidy - and his lessons tend to be in the doing, rather than the explication.

[leftwose]

is very good from a technical perspective... at first. It later dissolves into the student overdoing the reaction to what the teacher is showing. Receiving and expressing teacher's energy is as difficult a skill as most. Feeling exactly what teacher is expressing and translating that into an expression requires softness.

This is the root cause of why many demonstrations are devalued. Teacher can show an energy, but if student cannot express that energy it looks like teacher and student are colluding.

[XiaoXiong]

The other thing that happens is teachers get tuned into the student. The student is not trying to defend. That should be obvious. They are just trying to learn and be good present for the masters lesson, not contending with the lesson.
Jess

[daniel pfister]

I like the way the guy moves, and also like some of his explanation. His method of applying a bit of force in one direction, forcing an opponent response, then taking advantage of the response, is classic stuff and he applies it seamlessly.

There again: Would be good to see him doing it against someone who actually puts up a fight and is trying hard not to go down. Chen Zhiqiang, for example, takes on anyone and applies these concepts, but because he is doing it "for real" it looks a lot less tidy - and his lessons tend to be in the doing, rather than the explication.

Thanks for mentioning Chen Zhiqiang. I had not seen clips of him before.



It's definitely less tidy, but I think it exemplifies good Chen TJQ. The style really goes for the wrestling aspect which I like lot, yet you can see he is not very troubled by where the opponent puts his hands. He only seems to care about throwing and is not concerned with strikes. Whereas Jess's clip shows the teacher dealing with the student's arms early on which would be more useful against strikes, at least in theory. (For myself, I do try to combine the close and the far versions of sanshou/push hands where ever possible. http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=22090)

I don't particularly like the teaching method of Jess's clip though, as it seems the teacher is using more power than he needs to against very compliant students. I was thinking about this the other night while working with a particularly strong beginner. I could easily have thrown and pushed him around much like the instructor is doing in the clip, but what is the point? Once you demonstrated that you have taken control of someone's balance, pushing them back hard is purely gratuitous and even dangerous. If the student is really there trying to learn they should be able to feel this. More power should be reserved for those attempting to use a lot of power against you.