Interloper wrote:Not sure I'd agree with that, though I absolutely concur that there are plenty of demos where the uke/partner is conditioned to respond in a certain way. There are those demonstrators who don't really have much, and their students have drunk the kool-aid and have taught themselves to tank for their teacher.
All aikidokas condition themselves to react and respond a certain way. Though, this is not only a question of Aikido. There's a similar thing in jujutsu, judo and in many other "throwing" arts. The thing is that when they feel that they are going to the ground, they almost automatically prepare themselves to fall or roll just the way they were taught how to learn and fall. It's very irritating to practice with someone who wants to roll pretty. They go to the ground before I even have a chance to know if my technique was sufficiently executed to bring someone down who brought some resistance into the play. If you always play with this kind of people, you never have a chance to perfect your techniques, because they take away an important part of the work you do. So I don't like any kind of trained way of falling. It really builds bad habits. Learn to take a fall by falling. That's it.
That happens plenty. However, that is not what is happening in the OP video. Sometimes, there really is something going on, and the uke/partner is compelled to move -- either by mechanical force that moves him whether he wants to or not; by pain compliance, where he moves himself to escape pain; or, by a combination of the two. I am inclined to say that this latter option is what is happening in the OP video.
I know that some people lock themselves when they grab and that there are ways to force someone to lock himself in a grip. So partially I agree. But the Uke has still trained a certain way and must prepare his body posture before he goes to the ground or hurt himself. Otherwise he can not be thrown in the controlled way that he has learned.
Conditioned response also can happen in arts where there is, in fact, skill and power, and, if the uke does not throw himself just ahead of the demonstrator, he will experience really terrible pain and concussion, and, possibly, injury.
Exactly. He throw himself ahead of the demonstrator. That is just what I said.
Another person, a non aikidoka who was trained in throwing arts would respond with a counter movement. And a person from another art would not grab the way aikidokas do or throw a fist the way aikidokas practice. So what you see in the OP is an aikido situation. It doesn't mean that anything is fake, but it means that it works and looks a certain way because they both practice aikido or whatever aiki kind of art this was about.
That's what ukemi is for, though in traditional combat arts, the throws and take-downs are designed to not allow an opponent to breakfall out of it. But, in a training setting, adjustments are made to permit escape from injury, and the breakfalls are the way students condition themselves to get the hell out of the path of destruction.
Again, it's a terribly over complicated way to escape a "path of destruction". No Chinese art teach their students that they must throw themselves upside down so their feet meet the sky. There are tons and tons of counter moves that could be used instead. The way you people teach and learn is almost purely for show and building ego. Kind of. Not meant to be offensive.
Though I appreciate the way of learning how to flow with the force. It's good to exaggerate things if you know why and how. Here is the real benefit with this kind of practice. Following skill, not the jumping/throwing part.
This does not make the demo fake; it's just that the person on the receiving end knows what's coming and stays just enough ahead to keep himself safe.
In an unnecessary over complicated manner, yes.
.... I appreciate the artistic values though. It's called "art" for a reason.
