Sweet Swordplay from the 1930's

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Sweet Swordplay from the 1930's

Postby shawnsegler on Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:40 am

Lovely stuff, and their weapons aren't floppity tinfoil!



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Re: Sweet Swordplay from the 1930's

Postby Martin2 on Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:52 am

Looks very similar to wu-style qian kun jian.

Thxs
Last edited by Martin2 on Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sweet Swordplay from the 1930's

Postby edededed on Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:55 am

Fascinating - it does look almost exactly like qiankunjian (1st sword set in Wu Jianquan's school).

In 1939, Wu Jianquan had already moved to Shanghai.
I do not think that taijiquan was taught in the forbidden city anymore (after the boxing rebellion) (or was it?).

Perhaps qiankunjian was taught there by either Wu Jianquan or his father before he left? Or in reverse, perhaps qiankunjian was based on some kind of imperial sword routine on the other hand.

I don't recognize the sword routine done by the older gent here, is that part of qiankunjian, too? Or something else?
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Re: Sweet Swordplay from the 1930's

Postby Martin2 on Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:35 pm

It is also part of qiankunjian - of course a bit different from what I have learned, but the pattern is the same.

Can be seen here with Ma Yueliang about 2:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urpVZC9kPho
Last edited by Martin2 on Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sweet Swordplay from the 1930's

Postby cdobe on Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:21 pm

This is most probably Wang Maozhai himself. He was known to hold is class at Tai Miao in Beijing. Here is a photo for comparison:
Image

It is Wu style sword (qiankunjian) as practiced by that school. And yes, what the teacher shows is part of the same form. Here is Wang Peisheng doing the exact same form, but much slower with some of his own idiosyncracies:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZ4e_W5uqGA
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Re: Sweet Swordplay from the 1930's

Postby edededed on Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:05 pm

Very cool! Thanks for the information Martin and cdobe (I am not familiar with the whole of qiankunjian ;D). The old dude does look like Wang Maozhai there - and if he taught at Taimiao, it all comes together!

Do you know who Wang Maozhai taught at Taimiao (i.e. was it a certain class of people? Or just where he taught all his students?)

Perhaps we can even identify the student performing the first part of qiankunjian there... ;)
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Re: Sweet Swordplay from the 1930's

Postby windwalker on Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:31 pm

I see no "sword play" only sword forms
this is "sword play"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zueF4Mu2uM
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sweet Swordplay from the 1930's

Postby cdobe on Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:14 am

edededed wrote:Very cool! Thanks for the information Martin and cdobe (I am not familiar with the whole of qiankunjian ;D). The old dude does look like Wang Maozhai there - and if he taught at Taimiao, it all comes together!

Do you know who Wang Maozhai taught at Taimiao (i.e. was it a certain class of people? Or just where he taught all his students?)

Perhaps we can even identify the student performing the first part of qiankunjian there... ;)

Ed,
this is highly speculative at this point. The boys face reminds of Wang's sons Zichao and Ziying (http://www.ycgf.org/Masters_in_YCGF/TJ_WangMaoZhai.html), but the age doesn't match. I think Wang taught a lot of people there.

BTW and FWIW: Only one sect within Wu style purports that there were more than one set of jian. Everyone else, including the Wu family, Cheng Wingkwong line, Beijing lines and other significant students say that there was only one set. So, I think it would be best not to write it, as if this was an indisputable fact.
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Re: Sweet Swordplay from the 1930's

Postby edededed on Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:25 am

Good find - I do see some resemblance there with Wang's sons (who both look rather similar to each other).

Good point about the Wu taiji sword - that was not my intention! Incidentally, I was comparing sword sets (especially in Wu) recently, wondering if the relationships are more complex...

- Qiankunjian is certainly the common link (most Wu lines use this name and the sets are almost identical)
- Ng Wai Nung's line (i.e. Leung Shum's line, he is more known for eagle claw) seems to have their set called qixingjian, though, but I can't find any video of it (it could just be a different name for the same set)
- Cheng Ting Hung's line has a set called qiankunjian, but it seems different from the "normal" qiankunjian - some initial comparing with qixingjian videos made me wonder if it is related to that set?
- Also, wondering if Wu style saber and Yang style saber have much of a relationship or not - but since even Yang lines seem to have quite a lot of divergence in their set (after the first 10 or so movements), it might be hard to make a comparison.
- And any relationship with Yang style sword with anything in Wu?

But still looking around. Kind of interesting, since after generation 3 or 4 or so, everyone became a lot less divergent from their own teachers! (Same for bagua, etc., too.)
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Re: Sweet Swordplay from the 1930's

Postby shawnsegler on Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:02 am

windwalker wrote:I see no "sword play" only sword forms
this is "sword play"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zueF4Mu2uM


Semantics in response to something listed casually are teh yawnz.
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Re: Sweet Swordplay from the 1930's

Postby windwalker on Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:56 am

shawnsegler wrote:
windwalker wrote:I see no "sword play" only sword forms
this is "sword play"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zueF4Mu2uM


Semantics in response to something listed casually are teh yawnz.


Just pointing out that for most of CMA what is suggested as a skill is never shown
in use, only speculated by watching movements.

While they do have nice movement, and as you've noted their swords
seem functional it's hard to tell since they don't do any cutting with them.

Static cutting about the blade, form play about movement.
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sweet Swordplay from the 1930's

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:37 pm

The yang and wu sabre sets are quite different as are the Jian
If you want to see both sabre sets combined look to Huang hsein hsen he combines them into one set
The Jian is not about two guys in armour using blunt blades to play tag
It is much more subtle than that
It requires razor sharp blades used to vital targets
Even the saber two man set is about quite specific targets
The closest I have come to the use of the two tai chi blades is in the FMA
That was the reason I went to study FMA ,all it did was convince me that it was already there in tai chi
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Sweet Swordplay from the 1930's

Postby Taijikid on Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:59 pm

Although not exactly sword play or even close to combat. This clip shows some of the ideas behind the sword moves.



Enjoy!
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