San shou

[wayne hansen]

https://youtu.be/fTf9CPNBbS8?si=0HwZtkgFFWq1cB_m

[GrahamB]

Why don't you ever see these things in Chen style?

[origami_itto]

Why don't you ever see these things in Chen style?

Because the Yang's are about 75 years ahead of the curve, working on improving the method since the 1850s, and the Chens didn't start getting the innovations till the 1910s.

[Steve James]

Wang Xian's people have a san shou solo form.

But, if a student knows the applications for the entire form, it's not hard to make one up. If they don't know the applications, they can't. And, there's nothing bad about making up a form, the goal is "free" hands, not a form. Imo, that goes for any style.

[Appledog]

Why don't you ever see these things in Chen style?

Because the Yang's are about 75 years ahead of the curve, working on improving the method since the 1850s, and the Chens didn't start getting the innovations till the 1910s.

What innovations? A san shou form? You think there's no san shou forms? Who told you this?

[Appledog]

Why don't you ever see these things in Chen style?

Because chen style isn't as ubiquitous and exposed as Yang style.

There are a lot of forms like this. It's a bit strange to suggest Chen style doesn't have one. Pretty much every martial art I have ever seen has one.

There is however an issue around creating pre-arranged sparring forms for tai chi, that would be difficult to explain here. And will quickly explain why you don't see a form like this promoted as a 'standard' form in Chen, and why you DO see it in Yang. I'll be visiting the states and Canada around summer 2025, maybe we can meet up and chat about stuff like this for a bit.

[origami_itto]

Why don't you ever see these things in Chen style?

Because the Yang's are about 75 years ahead of the curve, working on improving the method since the 1850s, and the Chens didn't start getting the innovations till the 1910s.

What innovations? A san shou form? You think there's no san shou forms? Who told you this?

I don't know if there is one or not, just saying that modern chen seems to like borrowing from Yang developments, and, well... Which is it,

There are a lot of forms like this. It's a bit strange to suggest Chen style doesn't have one. Pretty much every martial art I have ever seen has one.

There is however an issue around creating pre-arranged sparring forms for tai chi, that would be difficult to explain here. And will quickly explain why you don't see a form like this promoted as a 'standard' form in Chen, and why you DO see it in Yang.

Does Chen have them or do they (the imaginary "a priori" Chen style standards and practices committee) not believe in the Idea of it?
I know the practical method guys don't even believe in stretching, so I guess the opinions vary.

[wayne hansen]

I don’t know how anyone could have the San Shou form without having the solo forms
In the two man forms you are being neutralised all the time
In the solo forms u are using your own neutralisation to gain advantage
Where you step to in the solo form is quite different to the two man form

[Appledog]

Does Chen have them or do they (the imaginary "a priori" Chen style standards and practices committee) not believe in the Idea of it?
I know the practical method guys don't even believe in stretching, so I guess the opinions vary.

Yang style Tai Chi comes from two main sources. One, Chen village Tai Chi that YLC learned. Two, the Plum Flower boxing that YLC learned.

Pretty much everything not found in chen tai chi comes from plum flower. Furthermore, for what it is worth, plum flower was a well known boxing style in the region at the time. Chen village would have been aware of the majority of the practice. This isn't a speculation over why they didn't do things, sometimes it's just tradition and because there's just too much stuff to do so things get focused down and streamlined and this can show up as completely different systems. YLC's brilliance, if any, was doing Sal's work for him, hundreds of years ago, and being able to recognize that Chen Tai Chi was a progression and evolution of the basic Shaolin forms he had already learned.



Here's some applications from Chaquan. If you have eyes to see it, you will see half of it is just like Tai Chi. The issue is the half that isn't, and for this, personal preference, mindset, morality, wude, etc. plays a huge role. That is why Tai Chi requires both martial and civil. Because the problem is choice.

[wayne hansen]

I don’t know what you think is Tai Chi like there

[origami_itto]

I'm going to have to go with Wayne here. Taijiquan isn't the moves, it's the engine.

But honestly I have enough people pissed at me over trashing Yang Cheng Fu, I do not need to kite the Chen mobs into the melee by getting too honest about THOSE thoughts.

I agree, as do many of my Taijiquan brothers, that Chen Style Taijiquan is Shaolin with softness and that 1800s Chen Village Family Boxing definitely formed part of the base of Yang Lu Chan's skills.

[Trick]

Taiji san shou as a whole two ppl form is totally unnecessary and even harmful practice if one aim for being “combat ready”, free hand push-hands(including leg skills) is far better and more appropriate practice .

[wayne hansen]

It is how it is taught
There are 88 movements and each one has numerous applications depending on how the other person attacks and how he handles your response
My teacher was never taught them as a two person set
When I met someone who taught me the set it was easy to put together from the solo forms
My teacher has had the opportunity to learn the two person set from me but is uninterested
However he loves the solo sets
As with the two man pole/knife/jian I have tried to teach them to a lot of people but most don’t get it
I usually don’t get much past the first 3 moves each side
Just because people don’t get it dosent mean it is not valuable
I think like a lot of things it is doomed to disappear due to lack of talented practicioners

[Bao]

free hand push-hands(including leg skills) is far better and more appropriate practice .

Agreed that free push hands is more important, but it's still like comparing Apples and oranges.

Performing the whole two-man form is for learning and demonstration. But when you practice you break it up, change the order and improvise combinations. Some say that the traditional way is also to attack with full power and speed. This will make you comfortable to defense against real attacks and understand real combat distance better. But it could also result in a bloody nose or broken ribs if you lack focus.

Just because people don’t get it dosent mean it is not valuable
I think like a lot of things it is doomed to disappear due to lack of talented practicioners

True. But people usually don't come so far in their training and many lack interested in more traditional combat training. Especially if it becomes more realistic (i.e. you can get hurt).

[wayne hansen]

Yes I concur