Tai Chi Tales: Was Yang Cheng Fu A Liar or Was it Cheng Man

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Tai Chi Tales: Was Yang Cheng Fu A Liar or Was it Cheng Man

Postby origami_itto on Tue May 21, 2024 12:05 pm

In 1934 Yang Cheng Fu published a book in collaboration with Cheng Man Ching that contained some wildly inaccurate information about Yang Style Tai Chi Ch'uan Founder Yang Lu Chan, Yang Ban Hou, Yang Jian Hou, and the philosophy and practice of Taijiquan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u13GLo7ksEU


This version has my commentary. I am curious as to which you prefer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caGQgx0wtwQ



Get the book :The Essence and Applications of Taijiquan
Also recorded in: Tai-Chi Touchstones: Yang Family Secret Transmissions
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Re: Tai Chi Tales: Was Yang Cheng Fu A Liar or Was it Cheng Man

Postby everything on Tue May 21, 2024 12:55 pm

think it's just along the lines of "we got this from some dude named Zhang Sanfeng" or "Yue Fei created this". I think out of the "big 3" IMA stories, the bagua story of "some Daoist monk showed me this circle walk" is more mysterious yet more credible.
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Re: Tai Chi Tales: Was Yang Cheng Fu A Liar or Was it Cheng Man

Postby Bao on Tue May 21, 2024 1:29 pm

I like the longer video better, it's more personal.

I've never heard about Cheng Man-Ching should have written the books anywhere else except here on the RSF. Chen Weiming is more widely recognized and accepted as the writer of the books. It makes more sense. Chen Weiming was a senior student who started studying with YCF already around 1914. When the books were written, about 1930-31, Cheng Man-ching was still a beginner, a junior student. Should YCF have chosen the beginner CMC with almost zero understanding of the art before any of his literate, and much more knowledgeable seniors? Sorry, but it doesn't make sense. Or rather, it's impossible. China is a very hierarchical society and much more so back then.
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Re: Tai Chi Tales: Was Yang Cheng Fu A Liar or Was it Cheng Man

Postby Doc Stier on Tue May 21, 2024 3:41 pm

Agreed. Any notion that Cheng enjoyed a position of such influence in the inner circle of Yang Cheng-Fu at those early dates seems like a disingenuous attempt to enhance the reputation of CMC long after his death.

If so, it is totally unnecessary, as Cheng's reputation has already respectfully endured the passage of more than half a century, and shows no sign of diminishing anytime soon.
Last edited by Doc Stier on Tue May 21, 2024 3:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Tales: Was Yang Cheng Fu A Liar or Was it Cheng Man

Postby wayne hansen on Tue May 21, 2024 3:52 pm

I take a differing track
I learnt from people who had learnt from both
They were honest people
They considered YCF & CMC honest people
I take their word because everything they taught was honest
If those two masters were called liars to their face there would be a toll to pay
You must ask what people get from spreading these rumours
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Re: Tai Chi Tales: Was Yang Cheng Fu A Liar or Was it Cheng Man

Postby Doc Stier on Tue May 21, 2024 3:58 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I take a differing track
I learnt from people who had learnt from both
They were honest people
They considered YCF & CMC honest people
I take their word because everything they taught was honest
If those two masters were called liars to their face there would be a toll to pay
You must ask what people get from spreading these rumours

Agreed. It's disrespectful to all of the deceased individuals in question. :-\
Last edited by Doc Stier on Tue May 21, 2024 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Tales: Was Yang Cheng Fu A Liar or Was it Cheng Man

Postby origami_itto on Tue May 21, 2024 4:50 pm

What is more disrespectful, putting a political agenda in a dead person's mouth or questioning the accuracy of a dead person's published works?

Wayne, I am surprised at your position. Wasn't it you promoting the importance of the truth? https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... c21f8ae623

It was his point about making up a false narrative to suit your position and how it effects others that I liked

This is a prime example of someone making up a false narrative to suit their position, yet because it is someone you admire and that people you admire say you should trust, you engage in some wild mental gymnastics to avoid facing the truth. The damage is self-evident.

I'm sure Yang Cheng Fu and any number of his students could kill me with their bare hands, that still doesn't make it true that he had a conversation with Yang Lu Chan about politics and Tai Chi for health.

What could anybody POSSIBLY have to gain from pissing off absolutely everybody in the Tai Chi universe?
Bao wrote:I've never heard about Cheng Man-Ching should have written the books anywhere else except here on the RSF. Chen Weiming is more widely recognized and accepted as the writer of the books. It makes more sense. Chen Weiming was a senior student who started studying with YCF already around 1914. When the books were written, about 1930-31, Cheng Man-ching was still a beginner, a junior student. Should YCF have chosen the beginner CMC with almost zero understanding of the art before any of his literate, and much more knowledgeable seniors? Sorry, but it doesn't make sense. Or rather, it's impossible. China is a very hierarchical society and much more so back then.


Doc Stier wrote:Agreed. Any notion that Cheng enjoyed a position of such influence in the inner circle of Yang Cheng-Fu at those early dates seems like a disingenuous attempt to enhance the reputation of CMC long after his death.

The forward is written by Cheng Man Ching, where he explains the book was written at his prompting. Chen Wei Ming is not mentioned anywhere in the volume.

The book was originally published in China in 1934. Cheng Man Ching started studying Tai Chi in earnest in 1930 and met Yang Cheng Fu in 1932. Cheng Fu died in 1936.
Last edited by origami_itto on Tue May 21, 2024 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Tales: Was Yang Cheng Fu A Liar or Was it Cheng Man

Postby Trip on Tue May 21, 2024 7:56 pm

We must not injure important parts for the sake of the unimportant


The story in the preface of The Essence and Application of Taijiquan is a minor issue.

That story of his Chengfu’s conversation with his Grandfather
is inconsequential to the purpose of the book.
Which was to enhance a students practice of Yang Style Taiji.

In the time it was written,
the preface story was used to urge people to practice.
Today, that story does not matter.

In that book,
This what Yang Chengfu says is important

The essential idea in compiling this book is to pay attention to both the form and the function.


The overwhelming info in the book
is to help a Yang Style student study
the Practical Application of Yang Taiji.

It was not written to replace
In-person hands-on Taiji instruction.

It's a re-edit
So, if you don’t like the story in the preface,
do not read that book.
Read the original
Methods of Applying Taiji Boxing
Taijiquan Shiyongfa


https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2011/11/24/methods-of-applying-taiji-boxing-taiji-quan-shiyong-fa/

The excerpt below is from Essence and Applications
The comparison of the 1934 book, Taijiquan tiyong quanshu with the 1931 book,
Taijiquan shiyongfa,
clearly indicates that Zheng Manqing’s role
was to edit and polish the earlier version.

A statement in Yang Chengfu’s “Introduction” supports this:

“This book is based on the previous books,
revised, and corrected, to remain as a standard model.”

The underlying demonstration narrative is substantially the same in both books,
and its structure strongly suggests that it was a direct record of Yang Chengfu’s own teachings.


In the original version of the book,
Methods of Applying Taiji Boxing
Tung Ying Chieh says this

Each posture is explained in ordinary language so as to make it easy to understand.

Inevitably there are omissions and errors in the text.
When you come across them, forgive.

This book is Yang Chengfu’s transmission of boxing theory.
But fellow practitioners who read through it should by no means take the writing too seriously.

You should only lay importance on the theory.

If you are finicky about the writing,
you will likely make mistakes in your own study of the boxing methods.

And, so I hope you all will pardon the writing.


Whichever book you choose to read
You'll get more out of ignoring the minor
And, Focusing on what's Important.
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Re: Tai Chi Tales: Was Yang Cheng Fu A Liar or Was it Cheng Man

Postby Trick on Tue May 21, 2024 9:03 pm

The book was originally published in China in 1934. Cheng Man Ching started studying Tai Chi in earnest in 1930 and met Yang Cheng Fu in 1932. Cheng Fu died in 1936.

I think a lot of the grudge against ZMQ ….and YCF lies in this, that ZMQ got the true transmission in such a short span of time, some of YCF’s disciples were probably not happy about that
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Re: Tai Chi Tales: Was Yang Cheng Fu A Liar or Was it Cheng Man

Postby Trick on Tue May 21, 2024 9:09 pm

. I've never heard about Cheng Man-Ching should have written the books anywhere else except here on the RSF.

Yes, I fell for that sneaky rumor, but then I’ve seen in the text somewhat quickly noted that - it’s “believed”, “probably” ZMQ that was the writer
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Re: Tai Chi Tales: Was Yang Cheng Fu A Liar or Was it Cheng Man

Postby Bao on Tue May 21, 2024 9:39 pm

Trick wrote:I think a lot of the grudge against ZMQ ….and YCF lies in this, that ZMQ got the true transmission in such a short span of time, some of YCF’s disciples were probably not happy about that


Who says he received "true transmission"??? When CMC studied with YCF, YCF only taught his "new style".

CMC did have a bad reputation for a reason. He was cocky but didn't live up to it. One time Tian Zhaolin scolded CMC, telling him in front of the others that he was lazy and the worst of all YCF's students.
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Re: Tai Chi Tales: Was Yang Cheng Fu A Liar or Was it Cheng Man

Postby Trick on Tue May 21, 2024 10:04 pm

. What could anybody POSSIBLY have to gain from pissing off absolutely everybody in the Tai Chi universe?
aren’t we all our own little universes
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Re: Tai Chi Tales: Was Yang Cheng Fu A Liar or Was it Cheng Man

Postby Bao on Tue May 21, 2024 10:59 pm

What is the point glorifying people? Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses. IMO should always hear different sides of the story, try to look at things from different angles and make your own conclusions.
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Re: Tai Chi Tales: Was Yang Cheng Fu A Liar or Was it Cheng Man

Postby Trick on Wed May 22, 2024 12:31 am

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:I think a lot of the grudge against ZMQ ….and YCF lies in this, that ZMQ got the true transmission in such a short span of time, some of YCF’s disciples were probably not happy about that


Who says he received "true transmission"??? When CMC studied with YCF, YCF only taught his "new style".

CMC did have a bad reputation for a reason. He was cocky but didn't live up to it. One time Tian Zhaolin scolded CMC, telling him in front of the others that he was lazy and the worst of all YCF's students.

Yes many things are said, but the masters are gone, and the new that never met the old feeing so bold giving them a scold.
Non of us was there non of them are here so nothings really clear.
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Re: Tai Chi Tales: Was Yang Cheng Fu A Liar or Was it Cheng Man

Postby Bao on Wed May 22, 2024 1:17 am

Absolutely true. They as persons, how they were, is not important. But we can still trace training methods and ways to build up certain types of body skills. This is what is valuable and what we should cherish. We can remember them, and be thankful, for the gifts they gave us by making the art public to the world and accessible.
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