tai chi chuan and rising position

[bruce]

hi ya'all,

here is a video i made the other day talking about some ideas about tai chi chuan rising position.
if you are interested please share some of your own ideas about this posture.


i am learning as i go...

[internalenthusiast]

i liked your clip. a good demo of possibilities of vectors/adaptations, i thought. given distance/timing, it all made sense to me.

a bit different, but maybe also on topic...

su dong chen on up/down, in small, middle, large frame/movement...

http://www.essenceofevolution.com/13tai ... njyutu.htm

best...

[bruce]

thanks. it was a learning experience. watching video of yourself you can see some flaws so it is a great chance to understand more.

i like what su dong chen was showing ...

[GrahamB]

Good work Bruce! I like it.

Things I noticed:

1. This is the same attack from the opponent we think about from this movement too in our style. They could also be following in with a head-butt after the initial grab, so it works for that also.

2. To me it looks like you never really get his balance - this is really important for this movement, otherwise they could follow up with a strike. This could be because:

a) he's not really committing to the attack - it doesn't work (in the sense of getting their balance) unless the attack is committed. It'll work as a simple block without getting their balance, but I'm not a big fan of that. Maybe ask him to "really go for it"?

b) you move back a bit too much when he attacks - I find this technique works best if you play the waiting game - let them come to you, then bounce them. What we tend to do is just let one leg go back initially while leaving the weight forward, rather than step back, that moves your head back just enough so you don't get head butted as they fall in front of you, but keeps you close to them to do the technique at the right range.

3. In our form we bend our legs as the hands come down - and put a bit of your own body weight into it, which should result in them folding in front of you, that's the second half of this technique (what goes up must come down!) (when you do your pull down at 0.39 you don't bend your knees, instead you bob forward slightly to get body weight into it - maybe try doing it by staying upright and dropping the weight using the legs?

4. If you raise your hands shoulder width apart, like most Tai Chi forms I've seen, then this technique doesn't work exactly like the form because your own arms hit the underside of their arms and that gets in the way of pushing them down afterwards. In our form we raise the arms up and bring the arms to the centre at the same time to bounce the opponent (peng), then separate them (split) and lower them (pull down/shock), that way you get the initial bounce, then split, then splat! If your arms raise shoulder width in the form then you might want to think about changing the form here, because that doesn't work,(well ok, 'doesn't work' is a bit strong. Maybe better to say 'modified more for health and less for martial...' )

I'll try to do a video on Monday to illustrate the above points, because it's hard to convey all these subtlties in words. You are right about there being no 'follow up' move in the form - one thing my teacher did was to create a little follow up sequence for throwing the person that links straight back into the form at this point. I learned it, but it's a hell of a tricky throw that works purely on momentum, and I find it too difficult for me - fine for him, but difficult for mere mortals, so don't do it much myself - maybe as I get better/older it will become part of my form I'll try to show that too on video, but it's super difficult. I prefer, 'just hit them in the head'

Edit - just reading that back and it all sounds very critical - sorry - don't meant to sound like that - on the whole I liked it.

[bruce]

good observations graham... the best of the observations is about not getting his balance. something to work on.

[GrahamB]

Agreed - the rest of m essay is a bit 'style specific'.... that's the main thing. When you swap over the other guy doesn't get your balance either.

[bailewen]

The application is fairly typical of what I usually see interpreted for this move. The follow up looks like Chen style to me. On the initial move though, it's more motion than is necessary to deflect or repel the alpha male dominance "monkey dance" chest shove that you set up.

If you sink as the hands rise, why not simply incorporate the attack into the initial move. The application as shown, is still 1-2. By sinking down you remove the initial target of the shove and get under the other guys center. Instead of leading upwards with the wrists, I suggest leading with the fingertips. You can apply and jing form below (counter intuitive, I know) and send the guy flying back with the initial extension of the arms. It's more direct. I tested it last year back home with a partner larger and more muscular than I am. We (friends and I) encouraged him to do his level headed best to push me back with the standard pre-fight chest shove. I sent him back with this applications 2 or 3 times. When he eventually tried to really put some "oomph" into it, I lifted him off the ground with the counter.

If I had a willing demo partner I'd happily show this version but I don's so all I can do is describe it for now.

Anyways, it's a conversational point that comes up a lot for me because it is so hard to get people to stop leading with their wrists (as is customary) and instead, lead with the fingertips. It's a different concept.

[Bao]

I think this is the kind of clip that people who want to understand the martial aspects of Taiji should really appreciate. Simple, good stuff!

Thank you for making the effort!

[Andy_S]

No offense Bruce, but I have problems with this for two reasons.
(1) The overall concept of "application" training
(2) The techniques shown

SNIP
I think this is the kind of clip that people who want to understand the martial aspects of Taiji should really appreciate. Simple, good stuff!
SNIP

I disagree entirely.

Over the last couple of years, I have really changed my mind 180 degrees on "applications." I used to wonder, "Why is this kind of training, that is so common in other styles, absent in Chen Taiji?"

Then I realised after visiting the village: Most Taiji training today is for people who have no interest in combat. There, if you want to learn to apply a move, they teach you to apply it in some kind of live context. Hence shui PH (though I don't think that is the be all and end all.) Problem is, before you learn to apply the techniques, you first have to learn the basics of Shuai PH - which has its own set of training technqiues that are really very different from the form. And being frank again, I have no belief that anyone trained in 'form applications' without some kind of live fighting training has a chance of pulling this stuff off against anything other than a demo opponent. (This is a problem with Asian MA on the whole, BTW; Note that combat sports - MT, BJJ, boxing, etc - don't have this idea of 'He does this, I do that'. They simply teach you to react and to fight.)

Still...if you really MUST train "form applications," at least drill them against something approching a committed attack.

All the above notwithstanding...

Regardless of "up and down" energies, there are really only four angles an hand attack comes at you: Straight or round, over or under. I have never thought the opening posture - raise wrists to intercept an straight force - to be effective against a straight attack. If I am facing a straight grab or punch, I want to divert to the side, and this is implict in both Taiji and Bagua technique.

Pls dont take this as an attack on you as - quite frankly - I dont recall ever seeing what I would consider a decent application of the opening move of Taiji (even Chen Xiaowang, and he totally changes the stance/technique). Speaking of which, I like what Su Dong-chen shows in the posted clip - but to consider this to be reprsenative of the opening move of Taiji form is one hell of a reach, IMHO.

[Areios]

No offense Bruce, but I have problems with this for two reasons.
Note that combat sports - MT, BJJ, boxing, etc - don't have this idea of 'He does this, I do that'. They simply teach you to react and to fight.)

I don't agree on this one. They are teaching things like that, just not in the fashion of TMA.

[GrahamB]

I think the problem with watching a video of anybody doing anything is that people instantly assume that it represents the sum total of their training.

Andy - how do you know Bruce isn't also training in a 'live' environment?

It's just a video of some applications, there's no way it could contain the entirity of "Tai chi", even if it had been made by Yang Lu Chan himself.

[Areios]

i agree dead traning is very good traning if you train something that works in a live format as well.

[Andy_S]

Graham:

SNIP
Andy - how do you know Bruce isn't also training in a 'live' environment?
SNIP

Acutally, I know that he does, so this is not a criticism against him. But I think this general style of "training" - ie "Look carefully: This is the application of the form! He does THIS and I do THAT," is dodgy - even it is just a demo.

On the technique front - as noted - I have yet to see a decent app of "raise hands" and I am totally unconvinced by what is shown above. Any move where you stand square on, with no footwork or body angulation, is dodgy.

This is the opening and closing technique of Taiji form, and it bears little resemblance to any other techniques inside the form, for reasons given.

Serious question for anyone:
If someone made a grab at you, is this (ie standing still and raising your hands, so deflecting upward) your PREFERRED response?


Areois:

Of course combat sports are teaching response and counter, but they train it in a live manner. That is the point: Context.

[GrahamB]

Andy,

I think knowing what the movement 'does' can make a large difference to your understanding of the way you do your form, so yes it is valuable, even if not meant to apply to an mma match, for example.

If all goes well I'll post my version, but we do it a bit more spirally in our old yang form than 'just raise and lower the hands' you usually see. And it works better with some footwork which isn't in the form anyway...

G

[Ian]

Serious question for anyone:
If someone made a grab at you, is this (ie standing still and raising your hands, so deflecting upward) your PREFERRED response?

absolutely not.

IMO the opening posture is great for developing internal power, for grab/takedown/throw defense, to help you understand how to take hits or other types of impact and redirect it, to help you develop exponential power for certain types of hits and throws etc.

in other words I don't practice it as a specific application.