Yang Style 2 Man Form

[Steve Rowe]

Filmed tonight at my Kwoon....

[Fubo]

Interesting form, thanks for sharing, Steve. Just out of curious, where does it come from? I'm not familiar with it? I've never seen it before in the Yang Shou Zhong line.

[Steve Rowe]

AFAIK Chu Gin Soon learned it from his first 'Yang Style' instructor, although it's not 'family' YSC identified it as their style and 'corrected' it. CGS taught it in the UK and Jim Uglow also went to Boston for further instruction and I learned it from Jim.

This is CGS's son Vincent demonstrating it:

[Steve Rowe]

This is the class practicing side A solo.....

[Fubo]

Cool, cheers Steve.

[neijia_boxer]

Nice, a bit different from what i learned, but it is the same form. here is a rusty version, we had not practiced for a while.

[GrahamB]

I always find Tai Chi 2 person forms look awfully 'forced' and unnatural, no matter who is doing them or what style they are from (not a dig at Steve and his students). The 'blocks' always seem to be strange little taps that wouldn't stop anything?

In contrast I find the the Northern Shaolin 2 man stuff always looks a lot more interesting, fun and 'useful' to me.

Typically, I can't find a good video example of a 2 man form, but check out this guy I found showing over 30 years of practice at 'spring legs'!



I just don't think Tai Chi is really built for doing 2 man set forms with....

[RobP2]

I learnt three variants of Yang style two person set and, to be honest, found the other two more applicable. This one is "nice" but always felt too "formy" for me.
Also wondered if there is a reason for the head tilt?

Oh and - Vincent is a great guy, but that shirt and pant combo....

[neijia_boxer]

I always find Tai Chi 2 person forms look awfully 'forced' and unnatural, no matter who is doing them or what style they are from (not a dig at Steve and his students). The 'blocks' always seem to be strange little taps that wouldn't stop anything?

I somewhat agree, but strangely they are not "strange little taps for blocks" it is a sensing and cover using following energy. i prefer getting guys to use focus mitts and palm/fist/elbow/knee/kick striking for real fighting. 88 form makes a good addition to the Yang Style curriculum, 88 form uses sensing and reacting with getting people into 'attack and defense aspects', different applications can be found, and variations of the 13 energies. It makes for a great demo form.

Last time I worked on that form was 2007, its good to learn, but get what you can from it and move on, a choreographed form will not help you learn true self defense.

[GrahamB]

Hey neijia_boxer - I thought your 2 man Tai Chi form was very much one of the better ones

I don't think these things make good demonstration forms though - I can't imagine a 'normal' person would see it as entertaining to watch, since a lot of the work, like you say, is about subtle shifts and follows. In contrast the Shaolin 2 man forms tend towards the dramatic ( a lot of times, they get silly, I'll admit). But the good ones can be "Good for show" and also teach important things about distance and timing.

[neijia_boxer]

Actually mine was pretty bad compared to when I studied it diligently , i would rather watch a 88 two person set than a solo form IMO.

Two person sets are good, i learned some Shaolin ones and some Wu-shu-y ones as well, so I played with the hard styles and soft styles (Hsing-i's "An shen Pao", and Pa-Kua "Rou Shou") and they have some conditioning (hitting body), qi-na, striking, sensing, distance and timing (as you said GrahamB) and other important aspects for a student. I would place it in past the 'beginner level' into more for 'intermediate students' and teach the "sparrring and combat" to Advanced students. Two person sets as a means to an end- no way.

[Steve Rowe]

The 2 man form teaches your body subliminally how to react to differing ideas and techniques so the response is not to seize and panic but soften and respond appropriately. I find it works remarkably well and alongside all the other Taiji training and fills a necessary gap. The 'form' is then varied so you don't necessarily know exactly what's coming and in push hands becomes more freestyle. I don't like 'sparring' as I feel that it's contradictory training to self defence and feel that predetermined or semi predetermined attack and defend with the right mindset works better.

[wayne hansen]

i learnt the san shou as two solo forms first,with several applications for each movement used as a completion.
the biggest problem with the duo set is each move is defeated before it reaches its target,so that when many people practice it as solo forms they build in its own
defeat.
i later learnt raymond chungs version which incorperated all his push hand drills.
the purpose being if the attack did not suit the corresponding defence you would flow into pushing until you could return to a better attack,becoming somewhat freestyle.
the next version i learnt was tt liangs long form which has all the pushing hands and ta lu interwoven into the 88.
here is my playlist wher i have accumelated several forms http://www.youtube.com/my_playlists?p=D30F32F76AE8B56F

[williamwilson666]

Two of Paul Brecher's students (formerly WTBA) performing the large san sau from Erle's Yang style.

Pretty decent attempt at it:

[Doc Stier]

While acknowledging the value of Two Person Forms, the fact remains that most Tai-Chi Chuan practitioners are hobbyists, who apparently have difficulty finding ample time and motivation to simply practice their Solo Forms enough to acquire much health benefit or martial skill.

Any Two Person Form requires just as much or more time and effort, as well as a regular partner who is also willing to practice with the same quality and consistency as you. It has been my observation that this rarely occurs unless you are able to enlist the participation of a mate or other family member, whom you see daily, and thus have the opportunity to train with on a frequent basis.

In this way, the availability of ready practice partners has always been a prime reason for teaching family members, and has long been a sure method of perpetuating a 'family' style.