Old School Tiger - Liang Ke Quan

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Old School Tiger - Liang Ke Quan

Postby Josealb on Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:46 pm

"Go ahead, you can hit me anywhere. Hit me here as hard as you can, right in the throat. You can try and strangle me if you'd like. Do you have a rope? I'll hang by my neck for you. I've had special training, you can't choke me. Go ahead and try," Liang Ke Quan said during our first meeting in a voice as rough as snow tires on a gravel road.

After watching him bang his body into a 3 foot diameter, 40 foot tall tree a dozen times and seeing the leaves rattle with every thud of his shoulder, I didn't doubt that he could actually do what he was saying. But what the heck, I wanted to see it done, so we gave it a try. However, try as we might; punching, poking, and strangling did not phase the man. But I suppose that after living a life as a dedicated Ba Gua and Xing Yi practitioner, fighting the Japanese during World War II, fighting against the Communist as a Guo Min Dang ( - Kuo Min Tang) Army officer and then subsequently spending fifteen years in a Communist prison, it would take more than a punch in the throat to hurt this man.

-Pakua Chang Journal No. 4.




Notice he picked the biggest boy to demo on, while pushing 70...

Last edited by Josealb on Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Old School Tiger - Liang Ke Quan

Postby C.J.W. on Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:30 pm

Cool video. I'd heard about Liang but this is the first time I've seen him move in an extended video footage.

Two things I found interesting:

1. Liang keeps saying that most masters, espeically in the old days, held back on their students and rarely taught good applications, and that nowadays many younger masters have no clue as to how to apply their arts effectively.

2. The few applications that he showed towards the end are taken straight from Shuai Jiao.
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Re: Old School Tiger - Liang Ke Quan

Postby bailewen on Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:59 pm

I was cringing through listening to their ...er..uh...attempts at translation. :)

Wished I was still in LA so I could drive down and volunteer. lol I really liked the old dude but the language barrier going on in that seminar really bugged me. Also, I felt like the big dude was being overly polite. I wouldn't expect him to go all HULK SMASH on a tiny old man like that but if was anything like what Jose described in the quote above, he could have tested the guy at least a little bit.

btw,
Notice he picked the biggest boy to demo on, while pushing 70...

Actually, he said he was nearly 80.

Anyways, getting back to my complain about the Stay Puff Marshmallow Man he was demoing on, if this old dude had the goods, almost 80 doesn't necessarily mean you'd have to hold back much. I trained under YC Wong when he was around 80 and he was powerful all fuck. His age might have meant something in a Sanda match but in a demo context it didn't mean shit. My current teacher is nearly 70 and his arms are like fucking granite. He's the one who has to always be careful not to hurt you. So if Liang Ke Quan is a real "old school Tiger", then they were being, IMHO, overly polite at that demo and it robbed me of the chance to get a feel for his gongfu.
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Re: Old School Tiger - Liang Ke Quan

Postby Josealb on Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:22 pm

Ill take a look at his bio in the journal, see if it says exactly when did he spend 15 years in prison. Zheng Wu Qing's son, Zheng Zhun, was forced to do labor at a ceramics plant, if memory serves me right, and after that his lungs weren't quite the same, or his taiji level. Just saying some things pay up on you when you get older.

I agree the big guy was a bit of a polite gentle giant, maybe too much.

I do remember that in Brian Kennedy's Neijiaquan, theres a story about a student of Vince Black seeing Liang at their school, and him making the cinder block walls vibrate with his shoulder strikes.
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Re: Old School Tiger - Liang Ke Quan

Postby C.J.W. on Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:52 pm

I don't see any problem in going harder against a tough old bird like Liang as long as he is informed. But still, courtesy dictates that there are still lines people shouldn't cross as students and grandstudents when going at it with old masters.

A while ago I stumbled upon a clip of Yip Chun -- son of Yip Man who's now in his 80s -- practicing Chi-Sao in public with a western student, perhaps grandstudent, who is also at Shifu level. The younger man was going quite hard and there were times when Yip was barely holding his own and somewhat struggling. That, to me, is inappropriate and unnecessary.
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Re: Old School Tiger - Liang Ke Quan

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:41 pm

The old man is the true stuff, I have heard it slightly differently, but still the same meaning Control by first strike, know by second, finish by third. It seems though, he may be past his demo fitness, and at the same time he could very well be trying to go easy, not using any speed,his knowledge, and information is wealth enough.

CJW said "2. The few applications that he showed towards the end are taken straight from Shuai Jiao."
To me another indication that the authentic arts if communicated by a True Master are indeed complete in their skills set.
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Re: Old School Tiger - Liang Ke Quan

Postby Josealb on Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:34 pm

Heres another one. I think these are the only clips ive seen of him.

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Re: Old School Tiger - Liang Ke Quan

Postby Drake on Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:45 pm

Honestly I'm more impressed by what he said than what he did. His physical stuff seemed *really* dumbed down for any newbies in that seminar. However the way he moved more than suggested that he had a *ton* more to share. Would have loved to meet the man.
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Re: Old School Tiger - Liang Ke Quan

Postby Pandrews1982 on Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:14 am

I liked the video, but agree that it was a very polite demo, on both parts. The big guy I think didn't really know what to do in the situation and just went along with it a bit. The old guy restricted his applications to pushes and trips, I think he could have applied strikes at the same time but left them out to be nice. He looks like a hard old SOB and the tree shaking is fairly impressive too so thanks for posting Jose.
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Re: Old School Tiger - Liang Ke Quan

Postby bailewen on Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:44 am

Drake wrote:Honestly I'm more impressed by what he said than what he did. His physical stuff seemed *really* dumbed down for any newbies in that seminar. However the way he moved more than suggested that he had a *ton* more to share. Would have loved to meet the man.


That's part of what made me cringe so much about the lack of an adequate interpreter. He went off on some stuff about the Xing Yi quanpu and was starting to break down various songs but nobody could tell WTF he was on about. Even with some of the more simple stuff he was just sort of repeating the same couple ideas several times trying to get a reaction but it was taking too much work. His speech, like so many great old kung fu masters, it a bit old timey and is peppered with kung fu aphorisms that make a much better point when you can hear them in the original language. Things like "十手没有一口" to mean "someone teaches you a dozen techniques but doesn't explain anything". In Chinese it's so succinct and, unfortunately, a bit obtuse if you aren't used to it. Literally "10 hands and not one mouth". "10 hands" meaning "learning 10 techniques". "One mouth" meaning "1 verbal explanation". Then he went off contrasting Tiger with Monkey and then Horse. I also noticed that when their interpreter heard him say he was explaining qin na stuff, he thought Kang was explaining "Tai Bird" stuff because "tai" and "cai" sound very similar.

I felt he wanted to share a lot of what was in his head but wasn't able to communicate much of it.
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Re: Old School Tiger - Liang Ke Quan

Postby kenneth fish on Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:59 am

Thanks to Dan Miller, I had the opportunity to spend some time with Master Liang - he was a wonderful gentleman, clear headed and very energetic to the end. His skills were of a very high level - deceptively light and fast. Dan related an incident to me that occurred while he was there - some young "monks" were looking to make a name for themselves and came to Master Liang looking for trouble. He told them - "do your worst - I'll take the three of you on at one time if you want". Two of them attacked Master Liang at the same time - he knocked them both unconscious immediately -- the fight was over as soon as it started.

Master Liang was also an excellent calligrapher (I have a couple of his pieces) - his characters had great strength and balance. I wish I'd had the opportunity to study some of that with him. What time I did spend with him was priceless - he was a very generous, no nonsense teacher.
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Re: Old School Tiger - Liang Ke Quan

Postby Josealb on Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:24 pm

I dont know if its the same incident that Ken mentioned, but it was also three guys. From the Pakua Chang Journal (Written also by Dan Miller):

A few days later, 20 August 1991 to be exact, the mayor sent a famous Shaolin practitioner and two of the Shaolin teacher's students to the school. One of the students was a local thug who frequently did the mayor's dirty work. When the men showed up at the school Liang was practicing calligraphy in his office and heard a commotion outside. When he went out he saw the men beating up the school administrator and two of the school's students. When Liang came out, one of the men asked him what he wanted. Before Liang could confront the man, another grabbed him by the shoulder from behind. Liang spun around quickly and hit the man who had grabbed him in the nose with Xing Yi's drilling fist, followed by a smashing fist to the throat and an elbow to the solar plexus. The man fell to the ground unconscious. The Shaolin instructor then came at Liang. Liang avoided the attack and hit the man in the ear with a chopping palm from Ba Gua and then came back with the same hand and struck his opponent in the jaw. He too was knocked out cold and lay on the ground next to his student. Seeing this, the third man ran away. The first two men were put in the hospital and it took one of them 24 hours to regain consciousness.
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Re: Old School Tiger - Liang Ke Quan

Postby Fubo on Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:39 pm

Cool video! With the old school guys, you rarely see anything on video other than forms, and maybe a small push here and there, so this is a nice find, even if it's not as intense as what's expected today for a demo. I also like the lack of pot belly... he must train more than he eats, even in old age.
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Re: Old School Tiger - Liang Ke Quan

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:00 pm

the thing i like about him is the trained energy that can be see when he is not demonstrating.
each gesture he makes has form and crisp power.
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Re: Old School Tiger - Liang Ke Quan

Postby kreese on Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:10 pm

I think I saw a similar application from Wai Lun Choi for his LHPF tiger. No nonsense. Something you can learn and apply from day one, but of course with practice becomes more and more efficient.

Tiger is a great animal, as if xingyi wasn't direct and simple enough!
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