Strawdog vs the Blademaster, Tuhon Leo T. Gaje

[TaoJoannes]

With the FMA in particular, I see something that no other weapons system seems to include, the apparently gratuitous movements of the stick. This would seem to waste energy and put the player in various positions that would appear to limit or change the potentially effective movements. In my own experience, holding a relatively stationary guard from which to work would better conserve energy and make accurate point (as in a point in space, not a point on a scoresheet) striking easier. If I understand correctly, these are to act as "feints" of a sort, and a whole set of techniques are designed to work from these positions, but in mismatched situations such as this, with absolutely no offense intended, it seems like the lower level player gets into a state of just moving it to keep it moving, and that opens the door for the senior, and calmer, player to strike at will. edit Example around 0:10 to 0:21 in the second clip. /edit

Would anyone care to speak to this?

I was taught to move the weapon hand so it does not get struck. It is the closest target. If you leave your weapon hand out there stationary, it is pretty much guaranteed to get hit. It is easier to hit a stationary target than a randomly moving one. And in a blade context, that can mean losing your weapon (and fingers).

That sounds reasonable, yet thin. The hand isn't tied there unless your attention lapses, an attack to the fingers can be just as easily evaded or deflected as an attack to any other part of the body, and despite all efforts for human beings to create "random" movements, patterns inevitably emerge, and can make it even easier for an astute observer to predict where the hand will be and strike it.

Bear in mind, I'm not really taking issue with it, just looking to get a better understanding. That could be one, very reasonable, purpose for the practice.

I have to wonder about the weight of the weapons as a factor. Moving a half-pound knife around as oppossed to a pound-and-a-half knife around would make a huge difference in energy expenditure. Perhaps the lighter weapons of the filipinos and indonesians are a reason for the method?

[ktoley]

Ah, yes, the pain, the pain.

I'm always torn by stick training/fighting. Is it for it's own sake, or are they suppossed to be representations of live blades? Weight and edge dynamics are important considerations if it's the latter, but at what point, in American society, does training for live blade fighting become nothing more than LARP?

If I understand correctly, these are to act as "feints" of a sort, and a whole set of techniques are designed to work from these positions, but in mismatched situations such as this, with absolutely no offense intended, it seems like the lower level player gets into a state of just moving it to keep it moving, and that opens the door for the senior, and calmer, player to strike at will. edit Example around 0:10 to 0:21 in the second clip. /edit

Would anyone care to speak to this?

"LARP?"
In my opinion the light stick and the heavy stick are weapons in their own right. As is a sword or knife.
But many of the skills from one weapon to another are transferable if you are willing to use them in different ways. (I think of the relationship between calligraphy and sword play.) The speed of the weapon helps you adjust to faster timing. The weight forces you to be more efficient, and can force foot work out of you. The restrictions of a weapon force you to learn balance, coordination, awareness etc. The presence of real threat helps one learn self control on offense and defense. (In most examples online however I don't much use of the heavy weapons. I don't really no why.)

Ideally being able to transfer as much as is practical from every weapon learned to the open hand, expanding the options in how you use your body and and blend to the opponent. So for example some of the light stick work could be used with a light sword and some of the heavy stick with a broad sword. But you can some use techniques of the sword with the sticks and change what you are able to do with the stick. You may not try even the smallest of variations in what you do until weapon forces you to change your approach. In that sense what you get from training with weapons has indirect application to whatever you find resembles previous experience.

For direct application well there are always the improvised weapons. Not just the bar fight with the pool queue, but the pen in your pocket, the towel on the table or the walking cane. The closer the item you pick up resembles something you have used, the better a weapon it can been in your hands.

"Mismatched"
I agree with your view that the scenario is mismatched. I would say however it is intentional on the part of the Tuhan. The Tuhan, for the most part, did the exact opposite of Strawdog once he got a feel for him. He could predict his movement and strike at will. Once landing one strike he followed up with another. He did not play Strawdog's game. One could say he did not play Strawdog's game because he couldn't due to his age, but I think it was because he did not have to and he started using that approach as a much younger man.

Best...

-Ken

[strawdog]

[nianfong]

the "heavy stick" has been a weapon for a long long long time in china. though I'm pretty sure this is a much heavier stick than the ones you guys are referring to.

the 硬鞭 hard bian , aka 鐵鞭 iron bian. FYI, soft bian 軟鞭 = whip. funny that the "whip" is also used to describe a certain body part of male animals when eaten.

[TaoJoannes]

the "heavy stick" has been a weapon for a long long long time in china. though I'm pretty sure this is a much heavier stick than the ones you guys are referring to.

the 硬鞭 hard bian , aka 鐵鞭 iron bian. FYI, soft bian 軟鞭 = whip. funny that the "whip" is also used to describe a certain body part of male animals when eaten.

Sure, in China, but I'm talking about modern stick fighting as it comes from the Philipenes and Indonesia. Is this art, particularly what's being shown here, an art that is using the stick as an instrument for its own sake, or is the stick a substitute for a live blade? The average rattan escrima baston is so light as to be a negligible concern, and handles in its way, and has its attacking and defensive uses, but these are different than a machete, or a broadsword, or knife, or whatever.

[ktoley]

the "heavy stick" has been a weapon for a long long long time in china. though I'm pretty sure this is a much heavier stick than the ones you guys are referring to.

the 硬鞭 hard bian , aka 鐵鞭 iron bian. FYI, soft bian 軟鞭 = whip. funny that the "whip" is also used to describe a certain body part of male animals when eaten.

I have never held a "bian" so don't have any sense of the weight. I do have a pair of batons that are Kamagong. They are not as long as the sticks used in Escrima but they are very dense.

The Ax Handle is rather heavy. I think to think of it like a club. Getting it to move in direction you want is very hard to do with muscle unless you are a very large person.

This links shows quite a variety: http://www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.co ... apons.html
I have not seen most of these weapons in any recorded demos.

[nianfong]

imagine a chinese long sword. now make the blade a cylinder of solid steel/iron/bronze. that's the weight. my guess is something like 10 lbs.

[Walk the Torque]

the "heavy stick" has been a weapon for a long long long time in china. though I'm pretty sure this is a much heavier stick than the ones you guys are referring to.

the 硬鞭 hard bian , aka 鐵鞭 iron bian. FYI, soft bian 軟鞭 = whip. funny that the "whip" is also used to describe a certain body part of male animals when eaten.

"Is this art, particularly what's being shown here, an art that is using the stick as an instrument for its own sake, or is the stick a substitute for a live blade"?

"The average rattan escrima baston is so light as to be a negligible concern "

You are kidding right?

Getting hit with a arnis stick may not lop your nose off, or cause you to loose an ear, they hurt like hell, can incapacitate your hands/arms quite easily and the disarm techniques can leave you wanting before you fully realize whats going on. Hardly of negligible concern in my view.


.

[TaoJoannes]

I believe Michelle Yeoh grabs one at around 2:26 in this clip

[nianfong]

yup, she uses a bian there. massive MFer.

[TaoJoannes]

the "heavy stick" has been a weapon for a long long long time in china. though I'm pretty sure this is a much heavier stick than the ones you guys are referring to.

the 硬鞭 hard bian , aka 鐵鞭 iron bian. FYI, soft bian 軟鞭 = whip. funny that the "whip" is also used to describe a certain body part of male animals when eaten.

"Is this art, particularly what's being shown here, an art that is using the stick as an instrument for its own sake, or is the stick a substitute for a live blade"?

"The average rattan escrima baston is so light as to be a negligible concern "

You are kidding right?

Getting hit with a arnis stick may not lop your nose off, or cause you to loose an ear, they hurt like hell, can incapacitate your hands/arms quite easily and the disarm techniques can leave you wanting before you fully realize whats going on. Hardly of negligible concern in my view.

I'm talking more about the weight of the weapon as a concern for the wielder than the amount of damage it can do as a factor of its inertia. I've seen arms broken and bowling balls launched by rattan not much thicker than a baston. You can simply move a baston more freely and more easily than your average bladed weapon, and the area of the weapon that can do the same amount of damage is much greater with a baston than a bladed weapon. By which I mean, it doesn't matter what part of the stick makes contact, it's going to do pretty much the same amount of damage, whereas with a bladed weapon, the damage will vary depending on if it hits with the flat, the backside, or the blade. Because of that, and because of how much easier it is to move around a baston than an actual blade of similar proportions, there are many more techniques and shots available to accomplish the same basic purpose with stick fighting than with blade fighting.

If you're fighting with a stick, and you know it's a stick, and it's suppossed to be a stick, there is one set of concerns you're working with. If you're fighting with a stick, and you know it's a stick, but you're pretending it's a bladed weapon, it's a different environment, different concerns, different things to worry about, basically.

[qiphlow]

i'm pretty sure that mr. gaje's classes differentiate very clearly between stick and blade work.

[Walk the Torque]

Thanks for clearing that up Tao, I guess I got the wrong end of the stick

In terms of weilding though; surely a strong(er) body, well weighted weapons, and honed skills would render most of your concerns negliible. I mean there are more similarties than differences in use with either stick or blade.

Then again I am a rank beginner FMA and might be talking out of my arse.

[TaoJoannes]

I really don't know a whole lot about FMA, but I really love my weapons, and I've sat through some great lectures and read some great articles and books on the subject of design and balance, and I swing around 5 or 6 different sticks and blades on a regular basis.

I really just want to know more about the rationale and methods here, and why FMA look so much different than any other weapons system out there, by and large, particularly with regard to those fidgety sticks.

[kreese]

...maybe because they spar a lot? "fidgety" sticks is a way to conceal your movements and keep your opponent guessing. Boxers fidget a whole lot too...