Strawdog vs the Blademaster, Tuhon Leo T. Gaje

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Re: Strawdog vs the Blademaster, Tuhon Leo T. Gaje

Postby ktoley on Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:28 pm

[qoute]

"The average rattan escrima baston is so light as to be a negligible concern "

You are kidding right?

Getting hit with a arnis stick may not lop your nose off, or cause you to loose an ear, they hurt like hell, can incapacitate your hands/arms quite easily and the disarm techniques can leave you wanting before you fully realize whats going on. Hardly of negligible concern in my view.


.[/quote]

I have to agree. The light stick, if you strike the wrists or hands can break any of the small bones rather easily. A good shot to the temple can pop out an eye. It really has little to do with weapon so much as those targets on most people don't require very much force to damage them. If you do "Bati-Bati, butt of stick methods", again hitting vulnerable targets and pressure points you can damage muscle tissue, crack ribs, crush the wind pipe, and a variety of things that can cause permanent injury or kill. Basically any damage you can cause with your hands can be multiplied by using the stick. However, as with most weapons, precision and skill is a factor. If you can't hit a vital target when you need to in a way that allows the weapon to inflict the damage you want it to, then it is negligible. The light weapons requires more skill.
Best,

-Ken
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Re: Strawdog vs the Blademaster, Tuhon Leo T. Gaje

Postby ktoley on Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:36 pm

kreese wrote:...maybe because they spar a lot? "fidgety" sticks is a way to conceal your movements and keep your opponent guessing. Boxers fidget a whole lot too...


That's a Good point.. keeping things in motion helps keep you from being predictable and allows you to deceive the opponent when you change direction.
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Re: Strawdog vs the Blademaster, Tuhon Leo T. Gaje

Postby tim_stl on Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:03 pm

TaoJoannes wrote:You can simply move a baston more freely and more easily than your average bladed weapon


i suppose that depends on what you count as 'your average bladed weapon,' huh?

TaoJoannes wrote:and the area of the weapon that can do the same amount of damage is much greater with a baston than a bladed weapon. By which I mean, it doesn't matter what part of the stick makes contact, it's going to do pretty much the same amount of damage, whereas with a bladed weapon, the damage will vary depending on if it hits with the flat, the backside, or the blade. Because of that, and because of how much easier it is to move around a baston than an actual blade of similar proportions, there are many more techniques and shots available to accomplish the same basic purpose with stick fighting than with blade fighting.


that doesn't make any sense at all. are you saying that you can hit with any part of the stick just as hard as the rest? that you can hit with the back of the stick (that faces your wrist) and the side of the stick (thumb side or back-of-the-hand side) just as hard as with the front of the stick? or that you can hit just as hard with the section a few inches past your hand as you can with the last few inches at the end of the stick? that there isn't a 'sweet spot' for each practitioner? you really should teach your style, because i see a lot of people fighting with sticks that all pretty much hit with the last few inches of the front part of the stick for some strange reason.

additionally, why is it easier to move around a stick 'of similar proportions' than a blade of those proportions? do these proportions include weight, or are you arbitrarily declaring that blades weigh more than sticks 'of similar proportions?'

what exactly is your experience with stick fighting, or any weapon fighting for that matter? your experience seems to greatly disagree with mine.

TaoJoannes wrote:If you're fighting with a stick, and you know it's a stick, and it's suppossed to be a stick, there is one set of concerns you're working with. If you're fighting with a stick, and you know it's a stick, but you're pretending it's a bladed weapon, it's a different environment, different concerns, different things to worry about, basically.


which the filipino martial arts address. some styles use a stick like a stick, some use it as a surrogate blade, and most have considerations for both.



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Re: Strawdog vs the Blademaster, Tuhon Leo T. Gaje

Postby Jed on Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:00 pm

To ToaJoannes: If I understand you correctly, you are saying that with a stick you don't have to be aware of an edge, like you would for a bladed weapon and, consequently, you can just smack away with any portion of the stick and it doesn't matter? Am I summing that up correctly?

I started training in Pekiti Tirsia around three months ago. Classes consist of stick, knife and empty hand work. Whenever we pull out the sticks, or the knives in training, my instructor always discusses edge awareness. A properly executed strike with a stick is done the same way it would be with a knife or a sword. You should be hitting with the same portion of the stick or the knife or whatever in relation to the position of your hand (you are holding the weapon the same way, with the edge oriented in the same direction). If you are hitting with another part of the stick, you are just being lazy and performing a sloppy strike. So, in answer to your statement (assuming I understood you correctly), stick, knife, sword, or whatever you choose to use as a weapon - it shouldn't matter. The consideration is in the proper technique, and not necessarily in the type of weapon you are using. For example, last night in class we worked on a partner drill called Qol de Mama (spelling?). We first practiced the movement using a single baston. After about 20 minutes, we were told to switch to a single knife. Guess what, the movements were the same - the only difference was in distancing. There is some adjustment for weapons of different length - some work better in corto, others in largo. The principle of movement, however, is the same. Once again, I am a newbie to fma, and not sure whether or not I addressed your point anyways, but there you go.
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Re: Strawdog vs the Blademaster, Tuhon Leo T. Gaje

Postby ktoley on Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:29 am

Jed wrote:To ToaJoannes: If you are hitting with another part of the stick, you are just being lazy and performing a sloppy strike.


Hmm.. this may sound strange but I think almost everything has a utility. You can hit with any part of any weapon and if you can generate the desired result, and repeat it, then it is good. There is not wrong way to fight except in a way that does not enable you to win.

In one of the beginner classes of our school, the Gura is very skilled with strikes that look like they may be very slow and are likely to miss their target. Her motions all appear "Lazy", lack form and you would think she is doing a very poorly executed 7 Strike. When the student reacts accordingly, a change in grip and use of her body, rather then her arm, creates a whipping motion that brings the tip of the weapon back to strike the intended target from behind with speed and power, not generated with muscle, over a very short distance. It works very well with the stick, when targeting the hand and wrist. To see it however it first appears wrong, and useless. You can't even see the strike if you are not looking for it. You know it is there when it hits you though because it hurts.

Although their are obvious adjustments it's quite effective when she applies the technique to the gim. Surprisingly with the gim, the same technique does not look lazy or formless. It's not because of her adjustments but because the gim requires finesse to use it effectively. So the motion fits it, and the expectations of the observer.

I don't know if she first learned her technique with the stick or the sword.
Best,

-Ken
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Re: Strawdog vs the Blademaster, Tuhon Leo T. Gaje

Postby Jed on Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:41 pm

ktoley wrote:
Jed wrote:To ToaJoannes: If you are hitting with another part of the stick, you are just being lazy and performing a sloppy strike.


Hmm.. this may sound strange but I think almost everything has a utility. You can hit with any part of any weapon and if you can generate the desired result, and repeat it, then it is good. There is not wrong way to fight except in a way that does not enable you to win.

In one of the beginner classes of our school, the Gura is very skilled with strikes that look like they may be very slow and are likely to miss their target. Her motions all appear "Lazy", lack form and you would think she is doing a very poorly executed 7 Strike. When the student reacts accordingly, a change in grip and use of her body, rather then her arm, creates a whipping motion that brings the tip of the weapon back to strike the intended target from behind with speed and power, not generated with muscle, over a very short distance. It works very well with the stick, when targeting the hand and wrist. To see it however it first appears wrong, and useless. You can't even see the strike if you are not looking for it. You know it is there when it hits you though because it hurts.

Although their are obvious adjustments it's quite effective when she applies the technique to the gim. Surprisingly with the gim, the same technique does not look lazy or formless. It's not because of her adjustments but because the gim requires finesse to use it effectively. So the motion fits it, and the expectations of the observer.

I don't know if she first learned her technique with the stick or the sword.


Ken, you make some great points and I appreciate your perspective. As noted, only a few months of fma under my belt (Pekiti Tirsia), so let me clarify what I was referring to in particular - edge awareness and orientation of the stick or blade. Also noted is that I was not entirely sure what TJ was getting at, and my comments were based on what I thought he was saying. At any rate, for clarification: As I understand it, PTK is a blade-focused art, and the stick is taught as such, so there may be differences with other FMA.

I was specifically thinking of angles 1-4. The way you hold a knife, sword or stick for use in these attacks is the same, with the striking surface oriented towards the proximal interphalangeal joints (the joint just down from the knuckles of the fist). The angle 1-4 attacks are all performed with the same blade orientation whether you are using a stick or a knife because it would make no sense from a structural standpoint to over-rotate the wrist/hand in one direction of the other to strike with the flat of the blade or the side of the stick for these angles. That is what I was referring to by a sloppy/lazy strike - if I do an angle 4 attack and I am hitting with the back/side of the blade/stick, then I haven't performed the strike correctly. You could argue that with a stick it doesn't matter, as no matter which part of the stick you are hitting with it will be blunt and rounded, but I think there is a distinct structural advantage to performing the strike correctly, hence my comment to TJ. Of course, this is from a newbie perspective, I am sure when one reaches guro/a level, the principles are ingrained to the point that one can deliberately alter the structure of a strike to lure/surprise an opponent.

Once again, enjoyed your comments, especially in regards to the use of the body to generate the power from the strike and not the arm.

Jed
Last edited by Jed on Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Strawdog vs the Blademaster, Tuhon Leo T. Gaje

Postby TaoJoannes on Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:43 pm

I love the internet, every discussion is an argument, and every question an accusation. :)

With regard to the striking force question, it's simple. You can basically move your wrist and forearm relative to your arm in four directions.

If your right hand is straight forward, palm to the left, thumb up, and you grab a stick, you can move it forward like casting a fishing rod, backward like drinking a beer, towards the palm or in towards the body, or towards the back of the hand - away from the body. Depending on the specific motion of the rest of the body, those can be used to build strikes of various strength.

With a bladed weapon, you have the same degrees of motion, but the sideways turning is less effective than the forward or backward, with a single edge, there's really only the single effective angle of damage. The other three are relegated to purely defensive actions.

As far as the question of weight goes, well, I guess there may be bladed weapons that have the exact same weight and proportions and weight distribution as a stick, or vice versa, I've never really run across any myself, but I'm sure there are some out there.
oh qué una tela enredada que tejemos cuando primero practicamos para engañar
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Re: Strawdog vs the Blademaster, Tuhon Leo T. Gaje

Postby strawdog on Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:58 pm

Everyone's an expert nowadays. -loco- -blah-
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Re: Strawdog vs the Blademaster, Tuhon Leo T. Gaje

Postby TaoJoannes on Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:37 pm

If I was an expert, I wouldn't ask questions, I'd just sit back and make cryptic comments and chuckle into my beard.
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Re: Strawdog vs the Blademaster, Tuhon Leo T. Gaje

Postby strawdog on Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:52 pm

You're making comments disguised as questions. ::)

Then you proceed to lecture on your knowledge of stick and blade. Laughable.
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Re: Strawdog vs the Blademaster, Tuhon Leo T. Gaje

Postby qiphlow on Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:08 pm

@@@
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Re: Strawdog vs the Blademaster, Tuhon Leo T. Gaje

Postby TaoJoannes on Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:13 pm

strawdog wrote:You're making comments disguised as questions. ::)

Then you proceed to lecture on your knowledge of stick and blade. Laughable.


I, honestly and sincerely, have nothing but respect and admiration for what you're doing, and not a small amount of envy. I think it's great and I'd love to know more about it, that's all, bro. The rest is just me yapping for the sake of hearing myself talk. :)
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Re: Strawdog vs the Blademaster, Tuhon Leo T. Gaje

Postby nianfong on Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:21 pm

meynard... you're derailing your own thread man.
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Re: Strawdog vs the Blademaster, Tuhon Leo T. Gaje

Postby strawdog on Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:35 pm

Nah, I'm just stopping the non-sense talk. Just watch the clip and enjoy. If you want to talk about blade fighting or stick fighting start a new thread.

I put the clip up to show my teacher in action since there's really no clip of him sparring available on line. Everything floating out there is a demo of some sort. Here he is sparring, that's pretty frackin' rare and it was put up on Ef.
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