Baguazhang skills in MMA/Fighting

[64Palms]

Here are 2 of many reasons not to walk the circle around your opponent like the guy in the video.

1) you are training attributes amongst other things whilst walking with your guard and body turned into the center - if you do this with an opponent in the middle of the invisible circle you seriously cut off your range of motion and ability to change - that's why you face your opponent, because when you close in or make contact you can go left or right, forward or back (you can't do that effectively if you are circling like the guy in the vid), and that would be one of the times to use your circling methods.

2) Circling like that, you are constantly crossing your leg and just asking to get swept, knocked down, tripped etc... That is like one of the basic things you don't do in a fight, bagua or not bagua.

Just because you walk like that in practice doesn't mean that is what you do in "that" part of the fight in the vid, just like you wouldn't walk in low postures just because you do it in the forms, you may get into a low posture entering a throw or something, but there is a time and place for it.

Well i agree with you about not walking around in a circle like the guy in the vid - but to me he is just walking a circle and not really applying Ba Gua (from the rest of his movements) or his Ba Gua is not that great in the first place.

I don't fully agree with you on the cutting off range of motion and ability to change - this, to me, comes from the circle. Like i said i would not just start running circles around my opponent, though i do walk in a circular manner. I also respect that there are many styles and approaches to combative bagua and hence what i perceive as circular walking may be different for some. Whilst using Tang Ni Bu i find that one is more able to change direction - rather than just forward / back or side / side circular movements opens up many more angles of approach.

If one practices the circle walking properly there is no fear of being swept or tripped. Again after having spent most of my martial life in other martial arts (TKD, Muay Thai, Vale Tudo, JJ, BJJ, etc) i have found that the many years of circular walking have developed my stability and leg muscles beyond any other training method. Having also sparred and free-fought with guys from other styles (not Ba Gua) i can say that circular walking certainly makes them re-think their approach. To give you a better idea - i would not initially start walking - like others mentioned, wait for contact then apply and possibly if the situation is right, continue.

Of course thee is a time and place for all elements of everything that we practice. In martial art is going to be situational in their application. If no we would all be meeting and applying techniques and know the counter immediately because martial arts would be predictable. What i think is very important is for each of us to approach our martial training intelligently and with an open mind.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Here are 2 of many reasons not to walk the circle around your opponent like the guy in the video.

1) you are training attributes amongst other things whilst walking with your guard and body turned into the center - if you do this with an opponent in the middle of the invisible circle you seriously cut off your range of motion and ability to change - that's why you face your opponent, because when you close in or make contact you can go left or right, forward or back (you can't do that effectively if you are circling like the guy in the vid), and that would be one of the times to use your circling methods.

2) Circling like that, you are constantly crossing your leg and just asking to get swept, knocked down, tripped etc... That is like one of the basic things you don't do in a fight, bagua or not bagua.

Just because you walk like that in practice doesn't mean that is what you do in "that" part of the fight in the vid, just like you wouldn't walk in low postures just because you do it in the forms, you may get into a low posture entering a throw or something, but there is a time and place for it.

Well i agree with you about not walking around in a circle like the guy in the vid - but to me he is just walking a circle and not really applying Ba Gua (from the rest of his movements) or his Ba Gua is not that great in the first place.

I don't fully agree with you on the cutting off range of motion and ability to change - this, to me, comes from the circle. Like i said i would not just start running circles around my opponent, though i do walk in a circular manner. I also respect that there are many styles and approaches to combative bagua and hence what i perceive as circular walking may be different for some. Whilst using Tang Ni Bu i find that one is more able to change direction - rather than just forward / back or side / side circular movements opens up many more angles of approach.

If one practices the circle walking properly there is no fear of being swept or tripped. Again after having spent most of my martial life in other martial arts (TKD, Muay Thai, Vale Tudo, JJ, BJJ, etc) i have found that the many years of circular walking have developed my stability and leg muscles beyond any other training method. Having also sparred and free-fought with guys from other styles (not Ba Gua) i can say that circular walking certainly makes them re-think their approach. To give you a better idea - i would not initially start walking - like others mentioned, wait for contact then apply and possibly if the situation is right, continue.

Of course thee is a time and place for all elements of everything that we practice. In martial art is going to be situational in their application. If no we would all be meeting and applying techniques and know the counter immediately because martial arts would be predictable. What i think is very important is for each of us to approach our martial training intelligently and with an open mind.[/quote]

QFT (bolded line)

[Fubo]

Well i agree with you about not walking around in a circle like the guy in the vid - but to me he is just walking a circle and not really applying Ba Gua (from the rest of his movements) or his Ba Gua is not that great in the first place.

I don't fully agree with you on the cutting off range of motion and ability to change - this, to me, comes from the circle. Like i said i would not just start running circles around my opponent, though i do walk in a circular manner. I also respect that there are many styles and approaches to combative bagua and hence what i perceive as circular walking may be different for some. Whilst using Tang Ni Bu i find that one is more able to change direction - rather than just forward / back or side / side circular movements opens up many more angles of approach.

If one practices the circle walking properly there is no fear of being swept or tripped. Again after having spent most of my martial life in other martial arts (TKD, Muay Thai, Vale Tudo, JJ, BJJ, etc) i have found that the many years of circular walking have developed my stability and leg muscles beyond any other training method. Having also sparred and free-fought with guys from other styles (not Ba Gua) i can say that circular walking certainly makes them re-think their approach. To give you a better idea - i would not initially start walking - like others mentioned, wait for contact then apply and possibly if the situation is right, continue.

Of course thee is a time and place for all elements of everything that we practice. In martial art is going to be situational in their application. If no we would all be meeting and applying techniques and know the counter immediately because martial arts would be predictable. What i think is very important is for each of us to approach our martial training intelligently and with an open mind.

I never said circle walking and bagua forms are not good for train directional change, but I am talking specifically about circling your opponent the way the guy in the video is doing - it does cut down mobility... for example, if you are walking with your side to your opponents front (ie the walking angle in the vid), to move to the opposite side of your opponent you would need to turn more then 90 degrees, while if you are facing him the angles you need to turn or enter become much smaller.

Obviously there are more directions then front, back, left, right - I was merely offering those up as basic examples.

The circling in Bagua is to train energies to affect the opponent while circling "close" to his body, or making him rotate around you. You want to face your opponent so you can either create an opening change with his reaction, or change relative to his attack... it's just silly to start changing and circling before there is anything to change against.

I've trained bagua and Taiji for quite some time (amongst other things like Judo, BJJ, Systema) and know the leg strength and root you are talking about, but I can tell you that it's a mistake to think that just because you have "root" that you can't be swept, thrown, taken down. A lot of IMArtists think that just because they have a strong root that they can't be taken down... until someone with skill takes them down.

Like I said before, crossing your legs in that manor with an opponent facing your side is an invitation to get taken down (with someone who knows what they're doing), I've met some bagua people who tried to do this during sparring - it was funny.

Something interesting about the video is that once they got into fighting range the "bagua" guy stop circling and changed to face his opponent, almost like he instinctively knew that what he was doing was a bad idea.

Yes, keeping an open mind and think intelligently about training is important, but so is paying attention to flawed theories. I also respect that there are many different "expressions" of bagua, but that does not change the fact that there are some universally silly things not to do in certain situations.

[64Palms]

I never said circle walking and bagua forms are not good for train directional change, but I am talking specifically about circling your opponent the way the guy in the video is doing - it does cut down mobility... for example, if you are walking with your side to your opponents front (ie the walking angle in the vid), to move to the opposite side of your opponent you would need to turn more then 90 degrees, while if you are facing him the angles you need to turn or enter become much smaller.

Obviously there are more directions then front, back, left, right - I was merely offering those up as basic examples.

The circling in Bagua is to train energies to affect the opponent while circling "close" to his body, or making him rotate around you. You want to face your opponent so you can either create an opening change with his reaction, or change relative to his attack... it's just silly to start changing and circling before there is anything to change against.

I've trained bagua and Taiji for quite some time (amongst other things like Judo, BJJ, Systema) and know the leg strength and root you are talking about, but I can tell you that it's a mistake to think that just because you have "root" that you can't be swept, thrown, taken down. A lot of IMArtists think that just because they have a strong root that they can't be taken down... until someone with skill takes them down.

Like I said before, crossing your legs in that manor with an opponent facing your side is an invitation to get taken down (with someone who knows what they're doing), I've met some bagua people who tried to do this during sparring - it was funny.

Something interesting about the video is that once they got into fighting range the "bagua" guy stop circling and changed to face his opponent, almost like he instinctively knew that what he was doing was a bad idea.

Yes, keeping an open mind and think intelligently about training is important, but so is paying attention to flawed theories. I also respect that there are many different "expressions" of bagua, but that does not change the fact that there are some universally silly things not to do in certain situations.

If you are purely talking about the guy in the video - then as previously mentioned, i agree.

Of course my leg may be swept! However, up until this point it has not been easy for my opponents to do so - particularly when i am walking the circle around them. But the again i haven't been kicked at by everyone out there who knows how. I will take what you have said on board so i don't get caught one day - but i dp my best to train all components of my art so i will try and test everything. I think the Ba Gua stopped circling because h did not know what he was doing with those Ba Gua steps. I'm not saying he can't fight - some of those other skills look alright, but not really ba gua. You are probably right he realised what he was doing was wrong (maybe next time!!).

Circle walking in combat is not a flawed theory - saying that it will not work as an absolute is an ignorant theory. I know that you may be referring to this video in particular. You seem to know - and i already mentioned - martial arts are situational arts.

[TaoJoannes]

I'd like to see you circle walk out of an armbar!

(I keed, I keed)

[64Palms]

I would just give them one of these!

[TaoJoannes]

I knew it, you got ahold of the Spencer Fisher groundproofing DVD!

[Fubo]

Circle walking in combat is not a flawed theory - saying that it will not work as an absolute is an ignorant theory. I know that you may be referring to this video in particular. You seem to know - and i already mentioned - martial arts are situational arts.

I was refering to the video and to people that do similar things like that.