the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

He obviously has more things than baguazhang, with the kicks and such, but check out near 1:00 with the deflect, this is actually the first time I've seen on the internet anyone using baguazhang in sparring or fighting that wasen't just app demos with partners.

It's funny to watch people walking the circle while fighting.

He seems to have good skills there (some nice kicks, etc.), but there wasn't much baguazhang to see, actually... (And like Fubo mentioned, you don't actually walk circles around people when fighting.) Better just train what your teacher shows you (don't believe what you see on most of YouTube).

I'm not a bagua practicioner but I've always thought that bagua's footwork in a real fight is more about being evasive and mobile rather than to actually use circle-walking

Many kicks does baguazhang have.

Yes, but baguazhang's kicking method doesn't include roundhouse kicks or jumping back kicks, as far as I know...

I believe the guy's Bagua experience is very limited.

And just as a general comment, usually when you see someone who'd lift his leg to head level for a round house kick without having first developed some kind of control on the opponent, it's probably not CMA.

No roundhouse kick?

edededed wrote:Yes, but baguazhang's kicking method doesn't include roundhouse kicks or jumping back kicks, as far as I know...

Why not? Baguazhang can be very expansive. We definetly do roundhouse kicks, think kou bu. It's certainly possible to express bagua in many ways that aren't the conventional.
J

edededed wrote: you don't actually walk circles around people when fighting.)

Why would you not utilise the circle walking method when fighting? I see alot of people mention that you don't use circular wlaking when "actually fighting" etc but have yet to read any concrete reason as to why not. I can say from personal experience that the circle walking method is incredibly useful and powerful in real fighting and general sparring. To me the circle walking method as a training tool and combative methodology is an exceptional expression of what Ba Gua is. For someone that practices Ba Gua there should be nothing funny about, for those that don't and especially those that are opposed against it - sure i would say it looks really strange.

That's not to say you should run circles around your opponent - but the techniques and methods that are born from this training should certainly be used for fighting sparring etc. Otherwise why train it? For inner power? There are many other methods that will build your power - why waste your time training a method if you will not use it to its full extent?

Hey, what's up, 64Palms?

Hmm - of course, circle walking is a very useful practice that has many unique benefits (besides power) which can be used when fighting or sparring. You are right to say that using the method directly can be very useful (indeed, even longfist or other styles do walk in circles in a fashion around their opponent at times). Mostly, I am just against the idea that the "tuimozhang" posture is a kind of standard fighting stance that one takes up whenever sparring (much as santi is also not a fighting stance).

All is well edededed.

Fair enough - i can understand why some would dislike that posture, however, i guess it may feel more comfortable for some than for others. Each of their own. It is of my own impression of Ba Gua that all elements of the circle must be applied. Naturally the straight from the circle and circular from the straight will manifest. I think it is important for each IMA to be open to components of their art. Try and test until exhaustion.

64Palms wrote:

edededed wrote: you don't actually walk circles around people when fighting.)

Why would you not utilise the circle walking method when fighting? I see alot of people mention that you don't use circular wlaking when "actually fighting" etc but have yet to read any concrete reason as to why not. I can say from personal experience that the circle walking method is incredibly useful and powerful in real fighting and general sparring. To me the circle walking method as a training tool and combative methodology is an exceptional expression of what Ba Gua is. For someone that practices Ba Gua there should be nothing funny about, for those that don't and especially those that are opposed against it - sure i would say it looks really strange.

That's not to say you should run circles around your opponent - but the techniques and methods that are born from this training should certainly be used for fighting sparring etc. Otherwise why train it? For inner power? There are many other methods that will build your power - why waste your time training a method if you will not use it to its full extent?

Of course there's nothing wrong with explicitly expressing the circular walking method when fighting with Bagua, but it's all about how, when, and where one uses it. However, in my opinion, constantly circling around the opponent without having first established contact is ineffective and dangerous. When the opponent sees movement, his reaction would be to constantly shift and move along as well, which isn't really what I want unless I am baiting the guy.

Circles of Bagua include straight lines and tangents as well, so a higher level practitioner should have the ability to condense the circles and express physical movements that can appear quite linear.

64Palms wrote:Why would you not utilise the circle walking method when fighting? I see alot of people mention that you don't use circular walking when "actually fighting" etc but have yet to read any concrete reason as to why not.

The bit that should be avoided is trying to run around back of the other person when you're more than a couple of feet away from them. The opponent can totally neutralize that by just turning a bit to follow you so it really does nothing other than waste time, and make the person doing it off balance and open to attack by committing to movement in a particular direction.

64Palms wrote:

edededed wrote: you don't actually walk circles around people when fighting.)

Why would you not utilise the circle walking method when fighting? I see alot of people mention that you don't use circular wlaking when "actually fighting" etc but have yet to read any concrete reason as to why not. I can say from personal experience that the circle walking method is incredibly useful and powerful in real fighting and general sparring. To me the circle walking method as a training tool and combative methodology is an exceptional expression of what Ba Gua is. For someone that practices Ba Gua there should be nothing funny about, for those that don't and especially those that are opposed against it - sure i would say it looks really strange.

That's not to say you should run circles around your opponent - but the techniques and methods that are born from this training should certainly be used for fighting sparring etc. Otherwise why train it? For inner power? There are many other methods that will build your power - why waste your time training a method if you will not use it to its full extent?

Here are 2 of many reasons not to walk the circle around your opponent like the guy in the video.

1) you are training attributes amongst other things whilst walking with your guard and body turned into the center - if you do this with an opponent in the middle of the invisible circle you seriously cut off your range of motion and ability to change - that's why you face your opponent, because when you close in or make contact you can go left or right, forward or back (you can't do that effectively if you are circling like the guy in the vid), and that would be one of the times to use your circling methods.

2) Circling like that, you are constantly crossing your leg and just asking to get swept, knocked down, tripped etc... That is like one of the basic things you don't do in a fight, bagua or not bagua.

Just because you walk like that in practice doesn't mean that is what you do in "that" part of the fight in the vid, just like you wouldn't walk in low postures just because you do it in the forms, you may get into a low posture entering a throw or something, but there is a time and place for it.