Andy_S wrote:Interesting, but, again, I do have to ask why Chen Fake (who taught his son, Chen ZK) did not teach them to anyone, why Chen Fake and ZK contemporary Chen Zhaopei did not know then (or even know of their existance), and why ZK taught these only to his Shanghai disciples - but not to his son, Chen Yu, nor to his relatives/students in the village ("the four tigers") at a time when both Chen ZP and ZK were making a strong effort to rejuvenate the almost lost art in Chenjiagou.
Three possibilities as I see it:
(1) It's a one-upmanship-based marketing ploy ("We have got the secret forms and you have not so ya, boo, sucks!") by the Shanghai peeps, who made up the forms themselves, or added forms from others styles and "Taiji-ised" them. Note also that not all the Shanghai Chen people have these forms. Ma Hong, a direct, Shanghai-based student of Chen ZK, does not know or teach 'em AFAIK.
(2) Chen ZK simply made the forms up in order to teach something "more" to the Shanghai peeps for financial or other reasons;
(3) There really IS a highly secret tradition of second and third forms, and this is just the first we have seen of it publically.
If the latter, it flies in the face of all the orthodox Chen literature and teaching, which states that there are two (not four!) empty hand forms - or was all that lit and teaching an elaborate smokescreen. Or perhaps the current village and Xian-based lineage holders never learned this stuff (though why not is unclear - as per above) and so will automatically state it ain't real. Eitehr way - secret, for sure!
I like the look of the forms, and they certainly LOOK Chennish, but of course the broader question is:
Does having an extra form or two make the Shanghai Chen group better at PH, free fighting, or healthier, than those of us poor saps who have only the two forms?
Yeah, I find this very perplexing as well.
Which is why an analysis of the postures and movements is needed, such as what percentage of postures/movements are found in what other sets from Chen TJQ or from what other styles? Following that, what percentage of the exact movements are also found in an other set from Chen TJQ or other style?
Looking at that video of this Chen ZK 108 set, I see a large percentage of the Long Fist movements originating from the Henan area such as Tai Zu Chang Quan, Chuao Jiao-Fanzi, Tong Bei Quan. So, that is consistent with the roots of the more commonly seen Chen Yi Lu set (lao jia).
Also, since photos of Chen Fake doing the Yi Lu set show him doing postures that are missing from today's Chen Village Yi Lu set (lao jia). These moves are consistent with the Tai Zu Chang Quan set that follows the same sequence as the Chen Yi Lu.
WHICH, I would think tells you that maybe Chen Fake (or his father) did have an extra influence, such as Long Fist from the Henan area; mayne they learned it as supplemental root material.
Or that his lineage passed along such "Hong Quan" root material that other lineages lost over time.
There is an important thing that needs to be seen to look into all this further.
And that is to see the 5 Hong Quan sets from Chen TJQ that is still done in the Shantong & Shanghai area
that come from the Chen bodyguard company that was set up there long ago.
