Chen Zhao Kui related clips

[Andy_S]

Sal:

I have the pics of Chen Fake doing Yi-Lu form and while I don't have them to hand, I am certain there is nothing in them that is not practiced in the village (and elsewhere) today. What postures are you referring to?

I assume you are talking about the B&W pics of him in his black suit, taken, I would guess, while he was in his 50s or 60s? Unless you have seen different pics of Fake...?

[salcanzonieri]

Sal:

I have the pics of Chen Fake doing Yi-Lu form and while I don't have them to hand, I am certain there is nothing in them that is not practiced in the village (and elsewhere) today. What postures are you referring to?

I assume you are talking about the B&W pics of him in his black suit, taken, I would guess, while he was in his 50s or 60s? Unless you have seen different pics of Fake...?

Yep, these:
http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/chenfake1.html

For one example: Look at #19 & 20, today those moves are skipped by some before going into #22.
Also, its how he's doing the movements, they are more Shaolin TZ Chang Quan like.

[Bhassler]

The village form predates Chen Fake's form. Chen Fake learned in the village (obviously), then went to Beijing and modified it based on his experiences there with other martial arts and martial artists. Chen ZK then further modified the form to make the spirals more explicit and probably emphasized qinna applications, which were something of a specialty of his.

Also, it's probably not too accurate to use any one instance of a form performance as "the" reference for how things were, are, or should be, given how much a form performance changes depending on audience, environment, and mood of the performer. Anybody worth their beans in taiji has a lot of options in how they represent things... that's kind of the whole point.

[Franklin]

Yep, these:
http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/chenfake1.html

For one example: Look at #19 & 20, today those moves are skipped by some before going into #22.
Also, its how he's doing the movements, they are more Shaolin TZ Chang Quan like.

sal

just to add my 2 cents
both those moves are in the 2 different chen yi lu forms that i learned
and they were in a third version that I learned but have since forgotten
each version was from a different teacher and all were very different forms stylistically but followed the same pattern of movements

franklin

[sdf]

Yep, these:
http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/chenfake1.html

For one example: Look at #19 & 20, today those moves are skipped by some before going into #22.
Also, its how he's doing the movements, they are more Shaolin TZ Chang Quan like.

What can human do with only two legs or two hands. All movements look like something:)

[salcanzonieri]

well, I don't want to go off on a tangent about Chen Fake's form, its not important.

What's important is where are these different 108 Chang Quan sets coming from that various Chen practitioners do?

[Andy_S]

Sal:

The moves you point out may be skipped "by some people" but they are in xinjia as I have learned it (and my lineage is from the village today) so I can assure you that these moves are still practiced very widely - they are not "forgotten," "rare," "lost" or "secret."

Also, am not sure what you mean by more "TZ like." Fake has wide stances if that is what you mean, but he is a very long and leggy chap. I don't really think this is in any way conclusive.

As for the ChangQuan forms: Well yes, there may be something there.

However, Chen XW apparently pissed Chan LQ off by stating to her (she had gone to some trouble to learn it) that it was best left forgotten (ie it's practice has been superseded by the Taiji forms). That may just have been Chen XW being defensive about something he did not know, but OTOH, the longfist forms are really only taught as an adjunct in those lineages that have them, AFAIK, so the consensus, even among those who do practice them, are that they are less significant than the standard yi-lu and er-lu.

[lide]

I asked CZL about the 108, and he said that the movements were not "lost" or "forgotten" but integrated into the two routines practiced today (more or less, IMHO). I'd offer that it's an argument more suited to Xin jia than Lao jia, but the point is the same.

[salcanzonieri]

Sal:

The moves you point out may be skipped "by some people" but they are in xinjia as I have learned it (and my lineage is from the village today) so I can assure you that these moves are still practiced very widely - they are not "forgotten," "rare," "lost" or "secret."

Also, am not sure what you mean by more "TZ like." Fake has wide stances if that is what you mean, but he is a very long and leggy chap. I don't really think this is in any way conclusive.

As for the ChangQuan forms: Well yes, there may be something there.

However, Chen XW apparently pissed Chan LQ off by stating to her (she had gone to some trouble to learn it) that it was best left forgotten (ie it's practice has been superseded by the Taiji forms). That may just have been Chen XW being defensive about something he did not know, but OTOH, the longfist forms are really only taught as an adjunct in those lineages that have them, AFAIK, so the consensus, even among those who do practice them, are that they are less significant than the standard yi-lu and er-lu.

Ir maybe its because, as Dr. Yan's researhc is showing, the 108 Long Forms aren't tai ji forms at all, but straight out of Tong Bei's curriculum. That would mean that they are supplemental or even root material, but that the main Yi Lu and Er Lu contain the evolution that created Tai Ji Quan, versus just being a sum of its parts.