Fushan Tai Chi

[count]

Don't think this has been posted here yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72wj91R7DAA



Triple Bonus!

[jonathan.bluestein]

Was just about to post it myself. Never seen this before. Legit "ancient lineage" or modern invention?

[Yuen-Ming]

This is one of the frames that was 'discovered' during the "Wushu excavation" that took place in China in 1983-1986, when thousand of styles were collected, together with manuals and ancient weapons, many of which are now gone forever. Supposedly Wang Zongyue passed his art to a number of people in Shanxi and famous physician/calligrapher/daoist Fu Shan (Qingchu) was a second generation in that line.
Li Siyuan in the video, who has in the meantime passed away, doesn't look particularly impressive in the video which however I posted mainly to record one of the many lines non-Chen related

YM

[Baguaplayer]

Non Chen lines of taiji?

I thought it all came from Chen unless you counted the stories about it coming down from legendary hermits.

[Andy_S]

I also thought (and still continue to think) that all Taijiquan we have today stems, in one way or the other, from Chen.

However, YM knows what he is talking about when it comes to CMA, so I look forward to further explication...

[kenneth fish]

When I lived in Hong Kong in 1977 there was some excitement over the presence of a teacher who claimed to represent the "Southern Transmission of Taiji" - a lineage that had passed from Wang Zongyue directly, not through the Chen or Yang families. I believe it was referred to as "宋溪南传太极拳“。 This video bears a strong resemblance to that form.

[yeniseri]

Don't think this has been posted here yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72wj91R7DAA

Interesting variation on a theme!
I am taking a stab at what I see but it seems to be from an era between Yang Banhou and some time prior to standazdization of Chenngfu format, where the form expression incorporates yangsheng principles with multiple turning (left/right), up and down, as in raising hands x times with some bending (beginning-head pointing to toe) as opposed to the standardized Chengfu holding pipa at angle (beginning). Guangping style may be the last Yang variant that has this basic bending as a leftover' from previous masters.

Another angle is Li family somehow ending up in Fushan area or someone having access to Li (Chen) when they were one family and this student of Li apparently incorporating what we see above as shown. Similar to the Zhaobao Thunder Taijiquan synthesis or even where you have 2 families of same style, the separation from origin creates a 'hybrid art or one side of family showing preference for a different format of said style. An example could be Chen family preferences for one or other of Old Style vs New Style with its dynamic external appearance.
Just a brainstorm!

Check out at time 1:38-1:39 bending towards knee. Seems like a signature movement! It also appears in some early Wu/Yang postures!


Look at the still above. Why does Fushan Taijiquan exhibit this similar posture when it does not exist in present sanitized Yang forms?

[Yuen-Ming]

When I lived in Hong Kong in 1977 there was some excitement over the presence of a teacher who claimed to represent the "Southern Transmission of Taiji" - a lineage that had passed from Wang Zongyue directly, not through the Chen or Yang families. I believe it was referred to as "宋溪南传太极拳“。 This video bears a strong resemblance to that form.

Dear Ken,

may I know who you are talking about, or any more info about this thing?

Thanks

YM

[Yuen-Ming]

I also thought (and still continue to think) that all Taijiquan we have today stems, in one way or the other, from Chen.

However, YM knows what he is talking about when it comes to CMA, so I look forward to further explication...

There are numerous lines that claim to be not connected to the Chen, some of which I have had access to, and I believe there are grounds to some of what they say. Some of these lines have manuals and other sources of info to back up their claims, thou many of those that went public in the last ten or twenty years (which one can now find on YouTube and the liks) are obviously made up.
This Fushan claim was made BEFORE the business of "old/original" started to become predominant in the Taijiquan circles, and there are external sources (from people who claim to be descendants of Wang Zongyue) even in textual form that would back up the Fushan line claim.
It is historically a fact that Fu Shan did martial arts, apart from his most famous skills as physician, calligrapher and Daoist, but a complete search to study this line has not been made yet. BTW, when Li Siyuan, the fellow in the video, was made public in Shanxi by the "Wushu excavation project" in the eighties another few pratictioners were found in Beijing who did "Ziwu Taijiquan" who also ascribed their line of transmission to Fu Shan. This second line of transmission comes obviously also from the same source.
The "excavation" also brought to light a "Fu Shan Boxing" manual dated 1880, where Li Siyuan frame is depicted without the "Taijiquan" reference.

YM

[yeniseri]

Thanks Yuen Ming!
Has there been any present day reference(s) or background on the Li family (associated with Chenjiagou) and how the alliance came apart? Apparently they dropped off the martial circuit and are content with the present status quo!

[Yuen-Ming]

Thanks Yuen Ming!
Has there been any present day reference(s) or background on the Li family (associated with Chenjiagou) and how the alliance came apart? Apparently they dropped off the martial circuit and are content with the present status quo!

Which Li family?

YM

[Yuen-Ming]

Check out at time 1:38-1:39 bending towards knee. Seems like a signature movement! It also appears in some early Wu/Yang postures!


Look at the still above. Why does Fushan Taijiquan exhibit this similar posture when it does not exist in present sanitized Yang forms?

It is hard to judge something based on one posture/transition that can probably be found similar in many styles.

The forward bent seen in the Fu Shan video at around 2:30 is not shown on their manual, which has a drawing only for the opening that immediately precedes it here:



YM

[kenneth fish]

YM:

I do not remember the gent's name - but he did have a book publish of him doing the form - it was titled 南传太极拳, and published in Hong Kong. It is not the same as the book by the same name by 倪清和.

[Andy_S]

Yeun-ming:

Interesting. But with regards to the posted clip: IS this Taijiquan?

To my eye, the clips shows:
Taiji(ish) shenfa
Taiji(ish) stancework
Taiji(ish) tempo and pace; and (most importantly, this is the critical thing);
An old chap in black gear.

But OTOH:
His form sequence does not really follow classical Taiji, and the classic (Chen) Taiji techniques (white crane, single whip, etc, etc) are not that easy to discern though (arguably) exist in his form.

Would be interested in your opinion. Permit me to pose two questions:
(1) How is this related to post-Chen Taijiquan?
(2) Does pre-Chen Taijiquan exist today?
(3) If so....is it valuable? (Combatively? Healthfully? Historically?)

Having answered the above questions, the next one would be - and feel free not to answer this, as it rips open significant cans of worms - this:
So...er...if not the art stemming from Chen Village in the 19th century, then...er...what exactly IS Taijiquan?

[yeniseri]

Yeun-ming:

Interesting. But with regards to the posted clip: IS this Taijiquan?

To my eye, the clips shows:
Taiji(ish) shenfa
Taiji(ish) stancework
Taiji(ish) tempo and pace; and (most importantly, this is the critical thing);
An old chap in black gear.

But OTOH:
His form sequence does not really follow classical Taiji, and the classic (Chen) Taiji techniques (white crane, single whip, etc, etc) are not that easy to discern though (arguably) exist in his form.

Andy,

The teacher who I learnt from allegedly studied under Yang Shaohou and the postures, though not difficult to discern, tended to be less than what is observed on a standardized Chengfu format. The shenfa, tempo, stance(s) though varied as opposed to standardized Chengfu, were enough to realize that the forms of the day from Yang Shaohou were in transition (for lack of a better term). Too many students of the era appear to show the changes that were apparent. Perhaps those who were early followers used the pre standardized varied forms and external frame while the latter students, with Chengfu as primary instructor, adapted to fit that period and incorporated that format as we see today!