Master Huang Sheng Shyan

[C.J.Wang]

Under certain circumstances when the student is primed to be thrown and both physically and mentally ready to do so for the master, amazing feats of fa-jin can be achieved. It's more of a psycological trick.

My teacher knows a tough Mantis teacher in southern Taiwan who had an interesting encounter with Huang at a demo years ago. Here's how it happened: after Huang tossed his students around while sitting in a chair, the Mantis guy charged toward Huang, pinned both of his wrists to his thighs, and said "please throw me, Master Huang, I'd like to feel your great power!" At that point, Huang simply turned his head and told everyone it was time to break for lunch. On their way to the cafeteria, Huang put his arm around the Mantis guy's shoulder and whispered "come on, little buddy, we are all martial artists here. Can't you show me a little courtesy and not make me look bad like that again?"

[Formosa Neijia]

Under certain circumstances when the student is primed to be thrown and both physically and mentally ready to do so for the master, amazing feats of fa-jin can be achieved. It's more of a psycological trick.

My teacher knows a tough Mantis teacher in southern Taiwan who had an interesting encounter with Huang at a demo years ago. Here's how it happened: after Huang tossed his students around while sitting in a chair, the Mantis guy charged toward Huang, pinned both of his wrists to his thighs, and said "please throw me, Master Huang, I'd like to feel your great power!" At that point, Huang simply turned his head and told everyone it was time to break for lunch. On their way to the cafeteria, Huang put his arm around the Mantis guy's shoulder and whispered "come on, little buddy, we are all martial artists here. Can't you show me a little courtesy and not make me look bad like that again?"

Ahh...so you finally tell the whole story.

Thanks for that.

I think this opens up a wider discussion that goes beyond simple fake or not fake.

Huang obviously had a great deal of skill. The question is skill at what?

Convincing an entire room of people that you can throw them at will, making them do the Peter Pan leap as they approach you, etc. all show an amazing skillset that simply shouldn't be scoffed at. Something very important is going on in these videos. How was he able to convince people of all this?

I wish I had that kind of skill. Especially back when I was single.

Another question is whether or not he could do a fraction of this against an unwilling opponent and I would venture to say that he could not. For example, his match with the wrestler is horrible and that's taking into account that it might have been fixed.

As CJW is suggesting, the real test of your physical and psychological skills is when you're doing this stuff against someone that isn't cooperating.

Dave C.

[iwalkthecircle]

Another question is whether or not he could do a fraction of this against an unwilling opponent and I would venture to say that he could not. For example, his match with the wrestler is horrible and that's taking into account that it might have been fixed.

As CJW is suggesting, the real test of your physical and psychological skills is when you're doing this stuff against someone that isn't cooperating.

i think he was 60 & that guy was 50, in the end the wrestler was pissed off since master Huang did not save him any face.

i am not someOne that likes to cooperating unless they picked me for demo.
demo is half fake, half real.

My doubt is if Huang do have some LKJ skill but his students exaggerate it, or if it is 100% hypnosis, or worse a blatant farce.

It is not LKJ, just very solid TCC skill...... Some of his student is helping out.

I know i did not help out his grand grand student.

[C.J.Wang]

Huang won the heavy weight open push hand competion in Taiwan back in the 60s and defeated Hong Yi-Xiang in the final. Obviously he knew stuff and was good at what he does. It'd be much better if he had chosen to show his skills in different ways.

[iwalkthecircle]

Huang won the heavy weight open push hand competion in Taiwan back in the 60s and defeated Hong Yi-Xiang in the final. Obviously he knew stuff and was good at what he does. It'd be much better if he had chosen to show his skills in different ways.

at that time did he started w/ ZMC yet or just mainly white crane? how do you know this to be true?

[C.J.Wang]

It was an open GuoShu competition held on June 24th, 1955 (Sorry, not the 60s). There were three divisions: Push Hand (Rou Shou), Shuai Jiao, and Lei Tai SanShou. Huang defeated Hong Yi Xiang and won the Push Hand title; A well-known Judo man named Chen Wu-Yin took the Shuai Jiao title; Chan Chuan expert Chang Yin-Jian won the SanShou title.

Here's the link to the timeline with the info: http://www.cmalib.pccu.edu.tw/cmalib_xoops/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=ASC&topic_id=66&forum=6&move=prev

The competition rule at the time allowed the champions from three divisions to challenge and fight one another, so Huang actually fought the SanShou champion Chang Yin-Jian and was defeated. ZMC was really angry and reprimaned Huang for his lack of Taiji fighting skills and said that he should know better than to challenge Chang. Huang's senior White Crane brother Chan Kai-Shan (my grand teacher in the WC system), who was present in the audience, also scolded him later on for confusing PH with free fighting, saying that he should have fought Chang using White Crane rather than Taiji.

It must have been a bad day for Huang.

[Formosa Neijia]

It was an open GuoShu competition held on June 24th, 1955 (Sorry, not the 60s). There were three divisions: Push Hand (Rou Shou), Shuai Jiao, and Lei Tai SanShou. Huang defeated Hong Yi Xiang and won the Push Hand title; A well-known Judo man named Chen Wu-Yin took the Shuai Jiao title; Chan Chuan expert Chang Yin-Jian won the SanShou title.

Here's the link to the timeline with the info: http://www.cmalib.pccu.edu.tw/cmalib_xoops/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=ASC&topic_id=66&forum=6&move=prev

The competition rule at the time allowed the champions from three divisions to challenge and fight one another, so Huang actually fought the SanShou champion Chang Yin-Jian and was defeated. ZMC was really angry and reprimaned Huang for his lack of Taiji fighting skills and said that he should know better than to challenge Chang. Huang's senior White Crane brother Chan Kai-Shan (my grand teacher in the WC system), who was present in the audience, also scolded him later on for confusing PH with free fighting, saying that he should have fought Chang using White Crane rather than Taiji.

It must have been a bad day for Huang.

Outstanding post! That was a real find. Thanks for sharing that. Weird that the link you provided only lists the results for a very few competitions and this was one of them. Of the ones listed, the judo guy Chen Wu-Yin won a few more.

Thanks again.

Dave C.

[C.J.Wang]

The timeline came straight out of a book about the history of CMA in Taiwan from 1950-1970 written by a professor of the CMA department at Chinese Culture University in Taipei.

In the world of CMA, there's a strong tendency to idolize and worship the old masters. Let's not forget though, those "masters" were once students themselves who, in the eyes of their masters, still had much to learn.

[ppscat]

iwalkthecircle, could he move you that way if your eyes were closed? Sometimes this happens if you already have some momentum and your mind is drifting focus between his hands, his center, your hands and your center. It's like having a short-circuit between mind orders that produces standing imbalance.

John Wang, thanks for sharing!

[C.J.Wang]

I am not John Wang.

[ppscat]

Pardon Ha ha

[iwalkthecircle]

iwalkthecircle, could he move you that way if your eyes were closed? Sometimes this happens if you already have some momentum and your mind is drifting focus between his hands, his center, your hands and your center. It's like having a short-circuit between mind orders that produces standing imbalance.

John Wang, thanks for sharing!

i think the way he moved/bounced/threw me were:
~ attack me at different vectors direction ALL at the same time
~ uproot me by stopping my moves first
~ great listen skills by sung
~ using his body wt efficiently by sung
~ good wave from his leg to his hand also sung



What i canNot figure out is how he stands parallel in a normal position, and I canNot push or pull him at ALL direction.
The stand Aikido demo is to redirect my force vector up which he did not do.
by redirecting my force up it makes his root stronger & uplift my root.
He redirected everyThing to his root in normal standing position.
Not sure if he can do this while moving tho'?

[rakushun]

i think the way he moved/bounced/threw me were:
~ attack me at different vectors direction ALL at the same time
~ uproot me by stopping my moves first
~ great listen skills by sung
~ using his body wt efficiently by sung
~ good wave from his leg to his hand also sung

What i canNot figure out is how he stands parallel in a normal position and I canNot push or pull him at ALL direction.
The stand Aikido demo is to redirect my force vector up which he did not do.
He someHow redirected everyThing to his root, in all positions.
Not sure if he can do this while moving tho'?

Good post. There's a lot to think about there.

[ppscat]

We practice that too, a Wu master taught it to my teacher, though practiced at a fast speed. It's a very interesting training as with feet in parallel you cannot transfer weight back and forth but only to the sides, so you really have to be sung to absorb and deflect punches and pushes, plus you cannot overextend while attacking.

[Taijikid]

What i canNot figure out is how he stands parallel in a normal position and I canNot push or pull him at ALL direction.

Most people think by standing with feet parallel (wuji) is a disadvantage, but in reality its not. Some of the reasons for you to think about it a little bit more:

1) You usually attack him in the forward direction.
2) You cannot get pass his forward center
3) He has more rotational mobility
4) He has not defined his Yin-Yang by taking any other stance

Just think a little more!!