Waist vs. hip, internal discipline

[Wu_Style_Disciple]

We've had a previous post about Master Hwa and "Classical Tai Chi".

What I'd like to know, is if in the demo given by Master Hwa in the video clip that is what a lot of other folks on the board mean when they say that they move from the "waist" rather than the "hips"?

Master Hwa's "internal" waist movements are very interesting.

[mixjourneyman]

A lot of CMA uses the term waist when they mean hip.
Some people actually use their "tailors waist" though, which in my opinion is the wrong practice.
Though for some CMA, there is the concept of dragon body, in which the hips and waist move independently of each other (a good example is Xingyi's heng quan)

[cdobe]

What I'd like to know, is if in the demo given by Master Hwa in the video clip that is what a lot of other folks on the board mean when they say that they move from the "waist" rather than the "hips"?

His explanation of the turning in Grasping the Bird's Tail is what I mean when I'm talking about the waist turning. Would have been interesting to see his waist movement in Xu Bu as well.

[charles]

What I'd like to know, is if in the demo given by Master Hwa in the video clip that is what a lot of other folks on the board mean when they say that they move from the "waist" rather than the "hips"?

In Chen style this is what would be called "using the dan tian" or "moving from the dan tian". His terminology is a litle different, as is his expression, but it is the same basic idea. Of course, he is, as he said, exaggerating the movements for the purpose of teaching. For example, if you watch Zhu Tiancai move, you'll see similar sorts of "waist" movement.

In Hwa's video, I liked that he showed the direct correlation between moving the middle and the extremities - movement of the middle drives the movement of the extremities, or "when the dan tian moves, the whole body moves."

[Wu_Style_Disciple]

If the position of the dan tien is approximately 3 inches below the belly button, is that not in the region of the hips rather than the waist?

The centre of the gravity of the human body is located in the hips isn't it?

What I'd like to know, is if in the demo given by Master Hwa in the video clip that is what a lot of other folks on the board mean when they say that they move from the "waist" rather than the "hips"?

In Chen style this is what would be called "using the dan tian" or "moving from the dan tian". His terminology is a litle different, as is his expression, but it is the same basic idea. Of course, he is, as he said, exaggerating the movements for the purpose of teaching. For example, if you watch Zhu Tiancai move, you'll see similar sorts of "waist" movement.

In Hwa's video, I liked that he showed the direct correlation between moving the middle and the extremities - movement of the middle drives the movement of the extremities, or "when the dan tian moves, the whole body moves."

[charles]

If the position of the dan tien is approximately 3 inches below the belly button, is that not in the region of the hips rather than the waist?

I was taught 1-1/2 to 2", and 2/3 of the way inwards towards the spine. I was taught that what is refered to as the dan tian that is moved during Taiji practice generally refers to the abdominal area, rather than a point.

It depends upon how one defines "yao" and "kua" and what anatomy is included in those terms and whether the dan tian is part of neither but something on its own right.

The centre of the gravity of the human body is located in the hips isn't it?

I was taught the c of g is located at the dan tian, which is one element of its importance - i.e. "moving from the center", "sinking qi to the dan tian", etc.

Some good questions for you to ask your sifu, along with, "What is the role of the dan tian in the practice of Taijiquan?"

I don't know anything about Hwa, but I do know that his teacher, Yang Wabu, had extrodinary skills.

[D_Glenn]

A lot of CMA uses the term waist when they mean hip.

I haven't came across that problem. If they mean waist they say "yao", if they mean hip they say "kua".


***

As charles said about 1.5" below umbilicus is correct as the dantian is straight back from 'qihai' point (cv 6), 1.5 cun below umbilicus, inbetween 'qihai' and 'mingmen' point (Gv 4) on the back.

The hips are often confused with the top of the pelvis, the iliac crest, as they reflect the movement of the actual hip, which is where the head of the femur connects to the pelvis, a good 6 to 7 inches below the center of the dantian. Initially more power is manifested if the hips and waist move in the same direction but as the connective tissue and muscle develops one can get more power out of the area between the waist and hips if they move against each other using a stretch then relax sort of force. In the beginning work on 'shun' (moving with), then later work more on 'ni' (moving against).

.

[mixjourneyman]

D_Glenn, thats super interesting and something I did not know about. Thank you.

[Wu_Style_Disciple]

I understand that sometimes you need to move the hips and the waist in a direction counter to each other -- e.g. Single and Double Lotus sweeps. However, I don't understand how moving them in opposition actually creates more power than moving them in the same direction.

A lot of CMA uses the term waist when they mean hip.

I haven't came across that problem. If they mean waist they say "yao", if they mean hip they say "kua".


***

As charles said about 1.5" below umbilicus is correct as the dantian is straight back from 'qihai' point (cv 6), 1.5 cun below umbilicus, inbetween 'qihai' and 'mingmen' point (Gv 4) on the back.

The hips are often confused with the top of the pelvis, the iliac crest, as they reflect the movement of the actual hip, which is where the head of the femur connects to the pelvis, a good 6 to 7 inches below the center of the dantian. Initially more power is manifested if the hips and waist move in the same direction but as the connective tissue and muscle develops one can get more power out of the area between the waist and hips if they move against each other using a stretch then relax sort of force. In the beginning work on 'shun' (moving with), then later work more on 'ni' (moving against).

.

[klonk]

I understand that sometimes you need to move the hips and the waist in a direction counter to each other -- e.g. Single and Double Lotus sweeps. However, I don't understand how moving them in opposition actually creates more power than moving them in the same direction.

Agreed! There is only a modest amount of twisting motion possible in the body above the pelvis, and it seems to me more powerful when used as an accent or grace note to the pelvic motion, and in the same direction.

[D_Glenn]

Typically when you use the 'ni' force it is the leg moving in the opposite direction of the hand, the root of the leg is the hip, this is called 'ni bu'. As you know the IMA's use tendon strength and tendons have more contractile strength than the counter muscles have in stretching the tendon so the tendons 'win', and when you can first stretch a large tendon(s) and then let it relax to deliver it is more powerful. The waist and kua first need to be developed though so up to a certain point a 'shun bu' move is going to feel and be more powerful and the opposite being better is inconceivable. If you can't feel this in your own body at this time then all I can say is 'more gong fu', or practice better, longer.

.

[Wu_Style_Disciple]

Yes, I guess I had better practice harder

According to what I've studied, tendons don't stretch. They are actually designed not to stretch.

Typically when you use the 'ni' force it is the leg moving in the opposite direction of the hand, the root of the leg is the hip, this is called 'ni bu'. As you know the IMA's use tendon strength and tendons have more contractile strength than the counter muscles have in stretching the tendon so the tendons 'win', and when you can first stretch a large tendon(s) and then let it relax to deliver it is more powerful. The waist and kua first need to be developed though so up to a certain point a 'shun bu' move is going to feel and be more powerful and the opposite being better is inconceivable. If you can't feel this in your own body at this time then all I can say is 'more gong fu', or practice better, longer.

.

[David Boxen]

That is a point of confusion for me as well. Is not stretching a tendon called a strain?

[FigureFour]

from wikipedia.

Tendons have been traditionally considered to simply be a mechanism by which muscles connect to bones, functioning simply to transmit forces. However, over the past two decades, much research has focused on the elastic properties of tendons and their ability to function as a spring. This allows tendons to passively modulate forces during locomotion, providing additional stability with no active work. It also allows tendons to store and recover energy at high efficiency. For example, during a human stride, the Achilles tendon stretches as the ankle joint dorsiflexes. During the last portion of the stride, as the foot plantar-flexes (pointing the toes down), the stored elastic energy is released. Furthermore, because the tendon stretches, the muscle is able to function with less or even no change in length, allowing the muscle to generate greater force.

[klonk]

I too would admit I oughta have more gongfu. And yet...what is this motion good for? One might invent an example, my foot is against his ankle and my hands are on his shoulder and face, and I intend to give a mighty heave and throw him over that-a-way. One might call this an example of separating or splitting force. And yet, since this particular application of force is not very often needed, I at least have not practiced it very often!

If you are talking about hand strikes, not throwing, the thing does not work at all, since, if you view the action in top view, you have one force vector running clockwise while the other runs counterclockwise, which is, as we all know, a cancellation of forces not an enhancement.

You learn something new every day, that's the American expression. I like the more cynical Chinese cognate, to gain knowledge, add things every day. To gain wisdom, remove things every day.

But this is an excellent discussion. I thing D_Glenn has tossed a good sized pebble into the pond, and I am interested to see where the ripples spread!

Klonk--not afraid to be wrong