Peng, Lu, Ji, An in Push hands

[Bao]

A very good clip on peng, lu, ji, an in push hands. This clip is about how to blend the movements together without gaps.



This is a series with PH theory, so continue watching the other clips and check the channel for more goodies.

[windwalker]

what he is trying to say is that all the 4 jins are contained in all movements, not just the movements that are called by them...
he is confusing it in his explanation with open & close, empty & full.... yes nice clip

[charles]

This clip is about how to blend the movements together without gaps.

what he is trying to say is that all the 4 jins are contained in all movements, not just the movements that are called by them...

what he is trying to say is that all the 4 jins are contained in all movements, not just the movements that are called by them...

Interesting how different people take-away different things from the same viewing. I wouldn't describe it as either of those. I'd say, he was demonstrating that there needs to be duality - opposites happening. Also, that the duality need to be used in combination, lu before peng, for example, or lu before kao. Don't just push (peng) - unidirectional/uni-action. He also threw in as a side comment that "length" is important - and it is. But, unless you already know that, and how to achieve/implement it, I think a viewer would go away with nothing from his description/demonstration of it. And of course spiralling.

I don't think it was a very good clip. One of the reasons is that his explanations were not clear, not focused. Each viewer thinks they saw him do and say something else. That creates confusion, rather than eliminates it. Too many ideas all on top of each other, rather than separated out and made obvious. In my opinion. He obviously has skills, though.

[windwalker]

The clip is nice in the sense that he is trying to explain and demo some concepts in depth, trying to be helpful to others on the taiji path
As you mentioned unless a person has some level in taji it may or not be to clear,,,much better in person..
people trend to see and view things from their own level or practice...

[Bao]

I think a viewer would go away with nothing from his description/demonstration of it. And of course spiralling.

I don't think it was a very good clip. One of the reasons is that his explanations were not clear, not focused. Each viewer thinks they saw him do and say something else. That creates confusion, rather than eliminates it. Too many ideas all on top of each other, rather than separated out and made obvious. In my opinion. He obviously has skills, though.

I agree to about 92% The explanations are not clear. But I do think that there are some good things in the clip. And there are very few even trying to explain how to work with this stuff. As always, it's better to look more and listen less.

Btw, everything does not have to be perfect. And people tend to have their own judgement anyway. If a practitioner is smart and wants to learn something from it, I am sure he will.

[charles]

If a practitioner is smart and wants to learn something from it, I am sure he will.

That's very funny, for reasons that are too long to explain. The average person seems to believe he or she is above average "smartness". The average person can't be above average: it is impossible by definition. Thus, some people are not a smart as they think. That leads to potential problems...

If a practitioner is NOT smart and wants to learn something from it, I am sure he will. There are many, many examples of that. And many examples of people who are students of teachers who are examples of that...

[Bao]

If a practitioner is smart and wants to learn something from it, I am sure he will.

That's very funny, for reasons that are too long to explain. The average person seems to believe he or she is above average "smartness". The average person can't be above average: it is impossible by definition. Thus, some people are not a smart as they think. That leads to potential problems...

If a practitioner is NOT smart and wants to learn something from it, I am sure he will. There are many, many examples of that. And many examples of people who are students of teachers who are examples of that...

That's a funny but true statement, I don't care if someone believe that they are smart when they are not. 99,9% of the human race are stupid but believe that they are not. If you are stupid, you won't know it. Maybe I am one of those. Who cares. But still I believe that if you have the heart and right ambition, you will be able to find gems if there are gems to be found.

I don't believe that there are perfect teachers or perfect ways to teach. We all learn in different ways and depending on our own understanding, we need to be taught in different ways. That is why I think it's not fair to demand someone to teach in a perfect manner. If you demand that, it means that you are egocentric and believe that everyone else learn and understand things in the same way that you do. But that is merely not the truth.

... Only if you are willingly to look through the flaws of a person, you might be able to see the color of his heart.

[charles]

I don't believe that there are perfect teachers or perfect ways to teach. We all learn in different ways and depending on our own understanding, we need to be taught in different ways. That is why I think it's not fair to demand someone to teach in a perfect manner. If you demand that, it means that you are egocentric and believe that everyone else learn and understand things in the same way that you do. But that is merely not the truth.

Thats a good point and well stated.

Taken to extreme, that implies that anyone teaching anything is a good (positive) things. The purpose of having a teacher is to shorten the length of time it takes for one to learn a chosen subject or endeavour, or to suggest something the student didn't think of. If the teacher lengthens the time it takes, or misdirects or misleads a student, not having that teacher is better than having that teacher, suggesting that anyone teaching anything isn't necessarily a good thing. Then it is the ego of the teacher that he believes he is helping students when that is merely not the truth.

Like everything else, moderation is needed, rather than one extreme of the other.

[Bao]

Lol! Well Charles, that might be true and it makes sense in both reversed ways. I can't keep up with you any longer

Anyway. I don't believe much in words when it comes to tai chi teaching. But it's always good to watch, and preferably feel someone who has developed a certain quality of movement. Also one can learn a lot by studying a teacher's use of stuff as leverage and distance. You really don't need to listen much on how he explains it.

[bailewen]

what he is trying to say is that all the 4 jins are contained in all movements, not just the movements that are called by them...
he is confusing it in his explanation with open & close, empty & full.... yes nice clip

This is how I understood it as well.

Although, I'll give that I may be, as you suggested, seeing things from my own level of practice or, as Charles implied, projecting my own understanding onto the clip.

I thought it was pretty clear though in the sequence from 2:40 to about 3:05 where he says that while he's, based on his stance/position/superficial understanding, doing "peng", simple peng will not get the job done. He has to be actually applying "lv". So is only works when peng is on the outside(his arm and visible frame) and lv is on the inside (the path the energy is being transformed through, the line from his feet up through his torso). This is not just something I figured out. It's an explicit part of my teachers teaching. I haven't talked about it in some time but a few years back I was very obsessed with the idea and talked about it a lot here on the board, the idea that much of what makes the form get so incredibly slow is that you are always trying to find the other jin within each movement so that peng is not just peng and ji is not just ji. You try to incorporate all 8 in each move...if possible.

At 3:26 he says, "Peng, lu, ji, an....never separate." <---I understand that to meant that they are all used together, all at the same time. ymmv.

ps.
At 4:18-4:20'ish he states the idea in pretty precise terms. His hand is lv while his upper body is pend. They are simulatneous. It seems so explicit at that point.

[ashe]

I'd say, he was demonstrating that there needs to be duality - opposites happening.

depends on what you mean by that, but based on my understanding, your use of the word duality is a red flag. Taiji is the unity of compliments, we want to propel complimentary force in such a way that where it starts it where it ends, then the ball will turn. In such a way we dissolve duality which is just yin/yang.

[charles]

If one takes one "experience", one "action", there are many ways that that can be verbalized, many words that can be used to describe that occurrence, many ways of conceptualizing what happened or what was done. Getting into arguments about the semantics of it isn't terribly productive.

I tend to agree with Bao that words begin to get in the way pretty quickly.

[everything]

enjoyed his explanation. my take was he emphasized peng and lu at the same time, as well as spiraling. like basic lu with peng like a turning of the circle with expansion as the person is being rolled back (like the big ball gives where you push it but spins and expands toward you at the same time) but i like that he shows a few more examples including the drilling/spiraling example. i did not find his explanations to be unclear but maybe i've hung out with the tjq crowd too much so can digest heavier ratio of theory to practice type explanations. but i liked the vid.

[charles]

Taiji is the unity of compliments, we want to propel complimentary force in such a way that where it starts it where it ends, then the ball will turn. In such a way we dissolve duality which is just yin/yang.

Sorry Ashe, I have no idea what you are saying.

[Adam S]

Hmm how can I say this

I dont think the theories have been tested in real situations......