Peng, Lu, Ji, An in Push hands

[Bao]

what he is trying to say is that all the 4 jins are contained in all movements, not just the movements that are called by them...
he is confusing it in his explanation with open & close, empty & full.... yes nice clip

This is how I understood it as well.
At 3:26 he says, "Peng, lu, ji, an....never separate." <---I understand that to meant that they are all used together, all at the same time. ymmv.
At 4:18-4:20'ish he states the idea in pretty precise terms. His hand is lv while his upper body is pend. They are simulatneous. It seems so explicit at that point.

But he also show how he use one movement after one another and how to flow one movement into one other.

I think you two guys interprete the 8 jins totally as qualities instead of movements or techniques. The "jins" are both qualities and actual technicl movements. One must separate the pure techincal aspects from quality aspects.

When he says "Peng, lu, ji, an....never separate." At 2.00 he shows them how one follows after one other and blend the movements into each other. He shows them as techiniques, movements, not as the qualities.

At 4:18 he said "My body is peng, while I do the lü". This is where the confusing part comes in. Now he is speaking about peng as a quality or pengjin, not as the movement or technique he has shown before.

To understand what he is speaking about, we must fully understand that the techniques(peng, lü,ji,an) are not the same as the qualities (pengjin, lüjin, jijin, anjin) which are independent form the actual techniques or postures. Pengjin is not the same as the posture peng or technical peng. He should have said "pengjin" at 4:18 and not peng to make it at least somewhat clearer. But IMO, it's absolutely clear that he is not demonstrating them as jins at 2.00. So sure, it might be confusing for some people not used to these terms.

Hmm how can I say this
I dont think the theories have been tested in real situations......

I don't understand what you mean Adam. You don't think that it's possible to make use of peng or lü in a real situation? Do you mean an actual fighting sitation or do you consider a ph comp as "real".

These are basic TJQ concepts that are discussed here. So you mean that TJQ as a martial art does not work in reality?

[Adam S]

No I know it works in reality

i dont really consider PH comps real

[charles]

This is where the confusing part comes in.

And, that was my point. Instead of providing clarity, he's presented it in such a way that anyone can go anyway they want with what he said/showed, with each insisting theirs is a correct interpretation of what he said and did. That isn't the hallmark of good instruction. Good technical instruction is a one-to-one mapping so that what the instructor did/said can only be interpreted in a single way - there is no ambiguity in what he did or said. It isn't easy to accomplish.

My point is a pedagogic one. Generally, I like what he showed, in the context in which he showed it.

[windwalker]

(Instead of providing clarity, he's presented it in such a way that anyone can go anyway they want with what he said/showed)

its just his way of expressing things,,,
some of his ideas are still being formulated, its not clear yet because of this...

he is quite sincere and hard working in his taiji......

[charles]

its just his way of expressing things,,,
some of his ideas are still being formulated, its not clear yet because of this...

he is quite sincere and hard working in his taiji......

Please don't misunderstand me. I think it is great that he is making these videos and sharing what he knows. I encourage him to continue to do so. I like what he has shown.

My comments aren't intended to be "harsh criticism", just counterpoint to what others have said. It is very difficult to teach the stuff he is attempting to teach. As a suggestion to him, focus on a single thing and illustrate that with simple, clear examples. Organize the individual single things into a logical progression to form the backbone of a training method.

[somatai]

this is why i started the body learning thread......i appreciate his communication and think i see what he is pointing at and it matches much of what i understand myself to be playing with, but the communication is always a function of someones sensibility and backround and even if perfect guarantees nothing, but if you were to get to play with him consistently over time i bet you would be better able to get it, you may have a slightly differnt language to express it......not denying the need to have it be expressed verbally, but i think that is more important to abandon the mind and learn to feel what he is saying.....balance cannot be taught but it can be learned"

[windwalker]

@ Charles, and others...

Thank all of you for your kind comments,,,Teacher Bryon, has had 3 main influences in his work,,his 2 teachers and me....
I will let him know that he is not quite clear in some of his presentation...which is what I noted and agree with...
part of the problem is language, the other part is level. We had often talked about making much of what some might call the esoteric side of the art more publicly assailable.
I have not really been a big fan of this for the reasons noted in this thread..in person there is no question or maybe it would be more fair to say that there are questions
but one always has the option to feel it in use....

[windwalker]

( i dont really consider PH comps real )

this is a good point, I dont consider them real also...as they are an outgrowth of a skill testing, skill understanding, skill developing exercise.
Like many such things that get turned into a competitive event, inevitability the skills developed start to become circular in that they are directed towards the outcome of the event itself, what ever the event may be.. the skills develop often bear little resemblance or relevance to the org intent. This is not say that they are not useful or there is no skill involved, only that the skills used and developed for the most part are often not in line with tcq, doctrine.

if one has developed or attained the real skill it really matters little what shape or form the force takes....


(I dont think the theories have been tested in real situations)

this is very mistaken,,,one can be hurt or injured very badly should one test with out having the skill level to back it up...this why in China, its very important to make sure the intent of the test is understood from the beginning....Otherwise one can be injured very easily in meeting the wrong person...

[everything]

Here is a video that explains this same kind of peng/lu dynamic in the first part:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Wk0PCIAxD1c[/youtube]

Light randori type sparring is "live" enough to realize if the theory or idea is helpful. Starting with when pushed, pull and when pulled, push, it doesn't (or shouldn't!) take long to learn a more combined and circular "energy" works better.

[Bao]

Here is a video that explains this same kind of peng/lu dynamic in the first part:



Light randori type sparring is "live" enough to realize if the theory or idea is helpful. Starting with when pushed, pull and when pulled, push, it doesn't (or shouldn't!) take long to learn a more combined and circular "energy" works better.

BKF is quite good. But here I have a much bigger problem with the explanations. He just calls it energies and does not explain the mechanics whatsoever. What he does is just adjusting himself to the opponents center and movement, it's not particularly hard and you definitively don't need any qi or energy. For me, it seems just like he is very fond of showing of, but what he says is not helpful for anyone, just like he didn't want the participants to learn anything. This vid illustrastes the essence of what I wrote earlier: Watch but don't listen to much on verbal explanations.