Angry Johnny

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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby gimpster on Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:09 pm

The fights are ground and pound because the rules and round times. Set each round to 30 seconds and watch the slug humping vanish.

Personally I'd allow them to sneak weapons into the ring as well, to simulate the real world. Saps, kosh's, blackjacks, mini-knuckle dusters, steel toed shoes, maybe leave a few chairs laying around. Make sure the all the ref's are at least half-blind.
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby Wanderingdragon on Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:24 pm

allen2saint wrote:Dragon,

Is the "ground and pound" what the art looks like in a fight? It appears to me to be a condition of fighting in a ring with rules that require submission. Most of these fighters, once having been knocked down with the blows we see here, are unable to continue being the aggressor in a fight. In my version of the art, that means it's over.


I understand where you're coming from, and I agree, if it's an honorable contest we're talking about. Just remember these arts were created for war and true defense, in a fight youre right, there is no ground and pound in THE ARTS, but THE ARTS, in a fight will stomp you in the face, stab you in the heart, or chop your head off, all from a standing position before we try to go down there and tussle, if by chance your opponent can take that weapon what ever it may be and bring you down, THE ARTS will go to ground and pound to be the one who gets back up. Pretty is in form only.
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Last edited by Wanderingdragon on Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby allen2saint on Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:05 pm

Even in a dishnorable attack, let's say a bar fight, if I have dazed him, like in these clips, it's done isn't it? In the movies, he's dazed a few seconds, but in reality, blows like this leave a person unable to fight for some time. Could he get back up after he recovers? Sure, but I'd be gone. If I'm defending my own home, then I can see a more aggressive move to really disable the guy.

Combat/war time art is a whole different animal and I think it has even less to do with this sport than a more civilized form of self defense on might( should?)practice in a bar.

I don't think I suggested any of it would be pretty. It never was for me.
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby Wanderingdragon on Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:20 pm

No arguement Allen, it's just the nature of the sport
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby gzregorz on Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:42 pm

allen2saint wrote:Dragon,

Is the "ground and pound" what the art looks like in a fight? It appears to me to be a condition of fighting in a ring with rules that require submission. Most of these fighters, once having been knocked down with the blows we see here, are unable to continue being the aggressor in a fight. In my version of the art, that means it's over.


But is it? If you knock someone down who seriously wants to hurt you are they going to stop there?
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby gzregorz on Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:47 pm

gimpster wrote:The fights are ground and pound because the rules and round times. Set each round to 30 seconds and watch the slug humping vanish.

Personally I'd allow them to sneak weapons into the ring as well, to simulate the real world. Saps, kosh's, blackjacks, mini-knuckle dusters, steel toed shoes, maybe leave a few chairs laying around. Make sure the all the ref's are at least half-blind.


Actually the opposite is true. When they had no time limits and no restarting on the feet the fights were mostly all ground fighting.
Last edited by gzregorz on Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby Wanderingdragon on Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:02 pm

gzregorz wrote:
allen2saint wrote:Dragon,

Is the "ground and pound" what the art looks like in a fight? It appears to me to be a condition of fighting in a ring with rules that require submission. Most of these fighters, once having been knocked down with the blows we see here, are unable to continue being the aggressor in a fight. In my version of the art, that means it's over.


But is it? If you knock someone down who seriously wants to hurt you are they going to stop there?


It's sport that were speaking of, that's tue difference that I'm seeing.
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby Sajite on Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:05 pm

gimpster wrote:The fights are ground and pound because the rules and round times. Set each round to 30 seconds and watch the slug humping vanish.

Personally I'd allow them to sneak weapons into the ring as well, to simulate the real world. Saps, kosh's, blackjacks, mini-knuckle dusters, steel toed shoes, maybe leave a few chairs laying around. Make sure the all the ref's are at least half-blind.





I've allways wondered how some training that is not valid for a caged fight is valid for something much more difficult, dangerouns and extreme than a cage fight.
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby Sajite on Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:07 pm

Ian Cipperly wrote:
let me know again when you've had enough of ground rolling man massages.


I'm sure Bones Jones never trains any ground work...


you're joking right??
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby I am... on Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:42 pm

gzregorz wrote:
gimpster wrote:The fights are ground and pound because the rules and round times. Set each round to 30 seconds and watch the slug humping vanish.

Personally I'd allow them to sneak weapons into the ring as well, to simulate the real world. Saps, kosh's, blackjacks, mini-knuckle dusters, steel toed shoes, maybe leave a few chairs laying around. Make sure the all the ref's are at least half-blind.


Actually the opposite is true. When they had no time limits and no restarting on the feet the Pfizer mostly all ground fighting.

Longer round times and time before being stood back up cater towards grappling and ground work. Shorter round times and shorter time before being stood back up cater towards explosive throwing and stand up striking.

The UFC in general has certainly moved more towards catering to striking than it initially did (one long round in the beginning if I remember right). If it was run using 2-3 minute rounds then you would likely see less a lower percentage of ground fighting and higher percentage of striking unless both fighters wanted to go down there. It simply is what it is.
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby gzregorz on Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:11 pm

Then just watch boxing. Ain't nothing wrong with being old school but that's a sport too.
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby Andy_S on Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:44 pm

SNIP
Even in a dishnorable attack, let's say a bar fight, if I have dazed him, like in these clips, it's done isn't it? In the movies, he's dazed a few seconds, but in reality, blows like this leave a person unable to fight for some time. Could he get back up after he recovers? Sure, but I'd be gone. If I'm defending my own home, then I can see a more aggressive move to really disable the guy.
SNIP

First, a knockdown (or fall down, push down, throw down, etc, etc) does not necessarily mean your opponent is "dazed" - though he may be. Hell, he may be KOed or even dead, but this is unlikely.

In many a fight in da streetz, your opponent can get up again for a whole range or reasons, so best to decisively finish him if you want escape, or dont want to be pursued.

But what is your finisher? As these matches show again and again (hell you can try it out with a partner) it is VERY difficult to effectively stomp a person on the ground who has working arms and legs.

You could bean him with a bar stool, but if you are empty handed, getting down there and GnPing is an effective way to finish, and your proximity also gives you near-immediate entry to a submission...which is why GnP is so commonly seen in these matches than stomp outs (which are legal, IIRC - you can even hold on to the fence for balancde as you try and kick down - and we saw many stomp attempts in early UFCs). In short, these guys have a full-contact, near-as-dammit NHB fighting laboratory, and over the months and years, they have worked out what does and does not work under these no-nonsense conditions...which, incidentaly, are more realistic conditions than any other competitive combat sport in modern history.

Of course, if you don't train ANY ground skills, that is your choice. But why not at least sample them rather than writing them off, based on watching TV? BJJ and judo are very widespread these days, and it is not as if you are being forced to give up CMA if you try this stuff.
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby allen2saint on Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:14 pm

gzregorz wrote:
allen2saint wrote:Dragon,

Is the "ground and pound" what the art looks like in a fight? It appears to me to be a condition of fighting in a ring with rules that require submission. Most of these fighters, once having been knocked down with the blows we see here, are unable to continue being the aggressor in a fight. In my version of the art, that means it's over.


But is it? If you knock someone down who seriously wants to hurt you are they going to stop there?


In these fights, which all seem to have opponents who want to hurt each other, once the opponent is really hurt by a blow or a series of blows, is dazed sufficiently and his structure breaks down, Johnny is using his ground skills and preparing him the repeated elbows, etc. What I am saying is that once those initial conditions are met, an opponent is not going to recover in a few seconds and when he does, or thinks he does, he will not be the same man( unless the bazillion fights I've watched are all flukes). You are dazed by a series of blows and if you're all froggy eyed, it's going to take you a while to get back to functional. I will walk and be out the door. It does me no good to go further.
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby allen2saint on Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:26 pm

And Andy, I'm not writing off all ground skills. I think the skill set is incredible. The pounding is against my grain.

Regarding fights, I didnt suggest simply pushing someone. I was referring to significantly dazing people, like Johnny does before he brings them to the ground. People will not recover or be able to navigate right after shots like that and if they come back, they will be significantly compromised. Realistic? Are we discussing a "one attacker" situation here? If so, once I have one man dazed and messed up like that, I can walk out of the bar and good luck to him chasing me.

I've been beaten up pretty good. Boxed and thrown around by some respected people and I liked it but I don't think I'll ever see somebody sitting on someone else and elbowing them until they're unconscious as anything other than barbaric.
Last edited by allen2saint on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby gzregorz on Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:14 am

Yeah I hear you, there are times when the ref will stop things right away. The problem is sometimes the fighter who lost will complain after the fight and say they wanted to continue. Also usually after just a few losses their career with the ufc is often over. That's sports.

Personally though I have no problem with the ref stepping in too early but then again I'm not trying to make a living fighting in a cage.
Last edited by gzregorz on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:42 am, edited 3 times in total.
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