Angry Johnny

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

not to belittle wrestling,jits, or any grapplers delight, but it is basic fighting, step one, schoolyard.

Say what?

[Ralteria]

Can someone tell me the difference between schoolyard, high school, and collegiate, and professional wrestling ? Other than relative intellect and physical stature.

I believe the terms your looking for would be technique, skill, and experience. The same between anyone who participates or competes in a skill set with varying grades of difficulty.

I'm assuming by professional wrestling you are referring to Olympic, etc. as opposed to something akin to the WWE...as that would seriously call your judgement into question.

[Wanderingdragon]

By professional I was referring to MMA, and technique, skill and experience are all degrees of understanding/intellect.
@ Ian , only if taken out of context

[bailewen]

" er yeah " only suggests that you should think about the statement. Your clips suggest you have studied traditional, but your tone today suggest that you may be one who has found a need to go in search.

Yes, that was sarcasm. Not even "veiled sarcasm", just the straight stuff.

And yes, I have studied traditional. I still study (train is a better word really) traditional. I'm a full "ketou" disciple training pure TCMA, Baji, Taiji, Xingyi and Bagua and in roughly that order. Completely besides the point and your inference is wrong. Taking an honest look at what you do is not a slight on your own art. The idea that one art can truly be "complete" and have nothing lacking in any context is just a fantasy. "Traditional" vs. "modern" isn't even part of the equation. Let's not forget that BJJ and Muay Thai are both traditional arts. You can train them in modern environments but Muay Thai, for example, is older than just about any MA China has to offer other than Shuai Jiao. BJJ is taught in modern contexts in MMA gyms but also taught in more traditional schools. It's about as old as Bagua, they wear traditional training uniforms (the gi), bow in to class (at many schools, not all) and use belt ranks. So while the typical core MMA arts may not be Chinese, they are thoroughly traditional.

Second, nobody tells a pro-boxer that they apparently "need to go in a search" because they take up wrestling. Boxing simply has nothing to offer in terms of ground fighting. Nowadays, nobody even considers it a slight against BJJ when BJJ folks take up boxing or MT or Karate or whatever. Futhermore, unless I want to take up MMA ring fighting, I agree completely with Bhassler's earlier post. Just a little basic awareness goes a long way. It just doesn't go all the way.

The TCMA curriculum I am working on has a thoroughly rounded out and extremely effective system of:
-striking
-footwork
-stand up grappling
-qin na
(ie. ti, da, shuai, na)
-health and nutrition
-personal development/philosophical training/work on "the self".

It has a moderately well worked out:
- weapons curriculum but really nothing near the practicality (in terms of training) found in FMA.
- throwing system (as a specific subset of "grappling" I just don't get the same amount of practice throwing as I would in a Shuai Jiao school)

It has virtually none if not none at all:
- ground work. None at all.
- actual "self defense" training. No situational training, legal awareness, de-escalation training etc.

I am completely mystified why some people feel the need to work out some fantasy about how they have it "all" under one roof. After seeing your clips, WD, I was truly, extremely impressed with what I saw. Looked like some truly first rate Xingyi to me. Smooth, fluid power; solid root. Good work all around. Just no relevant to the ground work discussion. And your comments on ground work related threads just scream, time and again, "I have never dabbled in this stuff, not even once." I feel like, reagarding this specific topic, you don't even know what you don't know.

[Wanderingdragon]

I am first to admit that I don't like rolling and wish not to roll, but all my comments are about the fact that I feel ground technique to be quite a common sense practicality. You are wrong when you think that I have not dabbled, but my experience with ground work has never left me wanting, or should I say, I have never felt at a disadvantage, it is strength, leverage, and weight it is truly that simple to me, it is wrestling.

[fuga]

You may not like rolling but you are very good at trolling.

[Wanderingdragon]

Fuga, to me, this is beer and conversation among friends, and at that bar you would have been backhanded for being a child.
@Bailliwen on this subject I am always here to find out what I don't know

[fuga]

Friends don't constantly insult their friend's practices.

In every single thread about grappling, you belittle it. Show some simple respect to those who train something different. Even in the LHBF threads, you were insulting to brothers in your own art. If you don't see this, re-read what you write and understand how it may come across to others.

I personally would never back hand a child (or someone acting like a child), and I am sure you would not either. But that use of language by you is a prime example of how what you say often comes across in a disrespectful manner.

What if there was someone who came on every single striking thread and constantly berated striking as rudimentary, unrefined, and elementary? Wouldn't that bother you? Isn't that the childish behavior? (Don't worry, I won't backhand anyone for that.)

If you want to understand grappling, empty the cup and train it.

[Wanderingdragon]

I'm am sorry you feel that way, I am honest in my curiosity and my opinions, in every thread, as far as the backhand comment, you are an adult I believe yet you came on like a child. If were to backhand you, I suspect we would end up fighting, I was just alluding to how a regular difference of opinion can go horribly wrong just by one simple childish rhyme. To me that's the wrong attitude. This is an open forum, different opinions is key to understanding.

[gzregorz]

It sounds to me that WD is a natural grappler or wrestler.

For me after few months of training boxing felt very natural to me that is in comparison to grappling and throwing. For me it took 2 or 3 years a grappling to be where I felt after a few months of boxing. This is why I like grappling so much, not so much because I think I would actually use it but because it's been the greatest challenge I've ever taken on, the same for judo as well.

Prior to that it was push hands, but in my experience in the US push hands just becomes a shoving competition most of the time with very little resemblance to what would happen in a real fight. After a few these encounters I realize that it's a lot easier to just try to throw these people than just shove back and that's the direction I've gone in. If it were easy I probably wouldn't bother.

WD perhaps we're not as gifted as you. I mean that sincerely, because for me none of this is easy and progress comes only through hard work which is why it is so rewarding to me.

[bailewen]

@Bailliwen on this subject I am always here to find out what I don't know

Then you need to take some classes from a world class grappler.

Empasis on world class. You'll never have your eyes opened just rasslin' with some random dude just as you are not likely to have your eyes opened with regard to IMA by just dropping in on your local Taiji class. Imagine the situation was reversed and we were all talking about how push hands skills or just stand up fighting in general was just common sense and we couldn't really see the difference between the schoolyard fights we had as kids and amateur boxing and pro-boxing championships. All that muckity muck "internal' stuff was just common sense practicality. After all, I've dropped in on several taiji classes over the years and it was no big deal . . .

. . . but then you cross hands with one of those world class internal guys. The one's where you completely lose your bearings at first contact. The guys that make you feel stupid and uncoordinated like it was a bad dream and you can't understand who slipped you a mickey. . .

Take a grappling class with someone like that and you'll understand. You wanna know what the big deal is? You have to seek it out. You just don't have a terrific chance of bumping into it on accident. Nowadays, a better chance than back in the pre-Gracies in America days but still not great.

[Wanderingdragon]

The only gift I have is fear of ground, so I make it a point to be very good at staying up.
@ bailewen, I've given it thought but a 58, it's what generates my fear of the ground, I figure if I'm rolling it'll probably because I'm In a real fight. but I keep thinking about it, I keep telling the guys I spar with, if they can take me down we'll roll.

[Areios]

wrestling and easy in one sentence? Wow....

[Bhassler]

@Bailliwen on this subject I am always here to find out what I don't know

Then you need to take some classes from a world class grappler.

Empasis on world class. You'll never have your eyes opened just rasslin' with some random dude just as you are not likely to have your eyes opened with regard to IMA by just dropping in on your local Taiji class. Imagine the situation was reversed and we were all talking about how push hands skills or just stand up fighting in general was just common sense and we couldn't really see the difference between the schoolyard fights we had as kids and amateur boxing and pro-boxing championships. All that muckity muck "internal' stuff was just common sense practicality. After all, I've dropped in on several taiji classes over the years and it was no big deal . . .

. . . but then you cross hands with one of those world class internal guys. The one's where you completely lose your bearings at first contact. The guys that make you feel stupid and uncoordinated like it was a bad dream and you can't understand who slipped you a mickey. . .

Take a grappling class with someone like that and you'll understand. You wanna know what the big deal is? You have to seek it out. You just don't have a terrific chance of bumping into it on accident. Nowadays, a better chance than back in the pre-Gracies in America days but still not great.

That seems to be jumping context a little bit. My take is we were talking about grappling in the context of street/self-defense, in which case "world-class" is by definition out of scope. I've rolled with a couple hobbyists, but never a super-badass grappler in my own weight class. It'd be fun to try, but in my area BJJ seems to be big business, and the cost is prohibitive if you don't want to go all-in and live the BJJ lifestyle.

[Bhassler]

What if there was someone who came on every single striking thread and constantly berated striking as rudimentary, unrefined, and elementary?

You must have missed the decade between 1995 and 2005 when that was most of what happened on the internets. To your point, though, it did get a bit tiresome after a few hundred times, I have to admit...