Angry Johnny

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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby Wanderingdragon on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:21 am

Another point we have overlooked and truly speaks to Allen's point. If you are involved in an altercation, in which you truly have finished the fight from a strikers vantage, and you are able to walk away , yet you still take issue enough to go down and pummel the guy with brutal elbows, to a helpless opponent, you may as well cuff yourself and wait for your ride to jail, you will not win in court.
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby gzregorz on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:47 am

two things.

1. if someone breaks into your home you might not have the option of just walking away and with longer police response times you better know how to control that person until the police arrive.

2. it's not as if these guys don't know what they're getting themselves into and it's not as if they do "g and p" everyday. this is how jj trained for years before finishing with "g and p."

Last edited by gzregorz on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby allen2saint on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:52 am

Great point.

Also, the point about early stoppages is well taken. I just rewatched Amir Khan's fight against Garcia. It was hilarious to watch him protest the ref with the little birdies flying around his head. Khan couldn't even walk across the ring to take a swing, let alone pose a challenge to Gracia. That's the kind of dazed that I mean.
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby allen2saint on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:54 am

Gregorz,
I specifically said a home invader is a different situation. A home invader, especially with other loved ones in the home with you, needs to be subdued 100%.
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby Bhassler on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:31 am

Andy_S wrote:In many a fight in da streetz, your opponent can get up again for a whole range or reasons, so best to decisively finish him if you want escape, or dont want to be pursued.

But what is your finisher? As these matches show again and again (hell you can try it out with a partner) it is VERY difficult to effectively stomp a person on the ground who has working arms and legs.

You could bean him with a bar stool, but if you are empty handed, getting down there and GnPing is an effective way to finish, and your proximity also gives you near-immediate entry to a submission...which is why GnP is so commonly seen in these matches than stomp outs (which are legal, IIRC - you can even hold on to the fence for balancde as you try and kick down - and we saw many stomp attempts in early UFCs). In short, these guys have a full-contact, near-as-dammit NHB fighting laboratory, and over the months and years, they have worked out what does and does not work under these no-nonsense conditions...which, incidentaly, are more realistic conditions than any other competitive combat sport in modern history.


1. Legally in the U.S., if you attack your opponent while he is down, you cannot claim self-defense (well, you can, but you'll fail).
2. Last I heard, giving someone the boot is the number two cause of death from fighting in the U.S. Number one is just hitting your head when you fall. This is why in most states the shod foot used against a downed opponent is considered a lethal force attack. The cage looks scary, but it is not made of concrete.
3. Some expert witnesses also consider gnp a lethal force attack (bouncing your head off the pavement is not good for one's health-- see #1 above)
4. Kicking a downed opponent is illegal in UFC, I believe. It was allowed in Pride, and in UFC back in the day (back when they allowed things like fish-hooks and elbows to the back of the head and neck and other fun things).
5. Going to the ground-- as much when you're winning as when you're losing-- is an invitation for receiving the aforementioned boot (see #2 above). Lots of people like to take free shots, even when they don't have a proverbial dog in the fight. If you're somewhere where you're likely to get in a fight in the first place, you most likely will find a higher than average concentration of cheap-shot artists as well.

MMA is awesome and teaches a ton of great skills, is fun to watch, and if I had the time and money available I'd be on my way to an MMA gym ASAP, but I believe it's not the same as self defense.

In closing, I know a guy who is well over 300 lbs and not fat, competes in strong-man events, and works as a bouncer in biker bars. He has at various times had a testicle ruptured and been lit on fire while fighting (just as a sample of the kind of fighting he does). I think being lit on fire got his attention, but having the testicle ruptured didn't stop him. It is for this reason and others that I do not believe in anything as a fight stopper-- it's gotta be everything you think is important, all the time.
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby Wanderingdragon on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:47 am

We got three different scenarios here , sport, barfight/streetfight, and home invasion/clear and eminent danger,each calls for a different mindsets. Probably ought to decide which we're discussing, honestly I see sport as another level of training, in preparation for when there are no rules. Problem is,many pros only go that far and truly are not prepared for when there are no rules, as on the other side of that coinmany who have trained strictly for real situations find themselves at a disadvantage stepped by the rules.
Bhassler: it's gotta be everything you think is important all the time.
This is great! You will always know when to fight and when not. Because many times its just not that important.
Last edited by Wanderingdragon on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby I am... on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:26 am

gzregorz wrote:Then just watch boxing. Ain't nothing wrong with being old school but that's a sport too.

I actually watch both, I just wanted to illustrate how rule sets can influence what is deemed most effective. Take away the gloves in boxing and it would become a very different game as well.
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby allen2saint on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:45 am

Take away the gloves in boxing and it would become a very different game as well.


Yes!!! Same with MMA, right? That always detracts from the realism argument for me.
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby Andy_S on Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:32 pm

SNIP
We got three different scenarios here , sport, barfight/streetfight, and home invasion/clear and eminent danger,each calls for a different mindsets
SNIP

And each may call for different skillsets. It is perfectly possible in ALL the scenarios you mention - sports, bar-street fights and home invasions - that matters can de decided by standup. OTOH, things could very possibly go to the ground, by design or by accident, whether you like it or not.

Given this, I am consistently bemused why certain forum members decline to take even a basic course in groundfighting to round out their skillsets. From comments here, I get the impression that some martial artists of long training have never - not even ONCE - sampled this important skillset.

Can you really consider yourself an experienced or (dare I say) advanced martial artist without having sampled any form of groundfighting, ever?

What I find even more bemusing, is that the types who don't do it seem to be of the "my-martial-art-is-for-real-life-or-death-fighting" persuasion. In a "real fight" anything goes, and there is a very significant risk of of things going downstairs.
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby allen2saint on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:10 pm

Were my posts construed as dismissing the skill set?
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby windwalker on Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:52 pm

(Can you really consider yourself an experienced or (dare I say) advanced martial artist without having sampled any form of groundfighting, ever?)

do you mean ground fighting as in Army?

http://www.jfsc.ndu.edu/schools_programs/jaws/ would this be the school for advanced martial arts?
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby gzregorz on Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:16 am

allen2saint wrote:
Take away the gloves in boxing and it would become a very different game as well.


Yes!!! Same with MMA, right? That always detracts from the realism argument for me.


And if you took away the golf clubs in golf the game would be very different as well.

That Tiger Woods is a cheater! He ain't got no skills! Let's see him hit the ball that far without using golf clubs!
Last edited by gzregorz on Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:35 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby allen2saint on Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:22 am

Lol! The same with deep sea fishing. The poles??? The bait??? Wimps!

I'm more defending ima than attacking mma with that comment. I frequently hear how much more realistic it is and I'm simply saying I see an awful lot of strikes to the head that wouldn't occur without the gloves.
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby fuga on Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:29 am

Why do threads about MMA always fall into this rut of argument about what art is the ultimate for street fights or self-defense? Why don't self defense videos turn into arguments about what is the ultimate art for fighting in a cage?
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Re: Angry Johnny

Postby allen2saint on Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:24 am

Well, not to be difficult, but I have read a lot of these "99% of Tai Chi people can't fight and MMA is the best" types of arguments, so I may sometimes defend IMA without it being challenged in the first place. In this case, I said I found the ground and pound barbaric, and the question of realism was raised.
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