Chen Xiaowang Slams Feng Zhiqiang Applications

[Andy_S]

Oskar:

Sure, that was the clip I referenced in the OP. (To reiterate) Some of Feng's students show excellent applications, so why does Feng himself show silly stuff?

[oskar]

Ah, so you did! Didn't remember (or check) what you wrote in the OP when i happened to watch that clip, sorry.
I can't really answer to your question...

[Shi Xingbao]

Chen Xiaowang learned almost all his TJQ from Feng Zhiqiang, his wushu uncle. Chen Xiaowang didn't learn from Chen Fake. Feng Zhiqiang, Tian Xiuchen, Chen Zhaokui and Li Zhongyin took the TJQ back to Chen Jiagou. I wonder if one who say FZQ's applications are ridiculous was able to tell him directly face to face. FZQ was fighter with very deep gongfu, much deeper then so called 4 tigers from Chenjiagou. chen style was taken to Beijing and then back to Chenjiagou. BTW, talk about "applications" in TJQ is yet ridiculous, who know something more about TJQ knows, that TJQ teaches the principles, not applications, one movement has thousands applications...

[C.J.W.]

I can think of two reasons why a high-level master such as Feng would demonstrate laughable applications like the ones in the video clip:

1. Generally, most old-timers are very conservative and would rather die than reveal "the real deal" to the public. That's why they tend to hold back when writing books or being filmed. I know a well-known Taiwanese teacher who always does certain key movements in his forms incorrectly on purpose when he teaches seminar abroad to foreign students, and another one who said, "The techniques I showed in my book are wrong. I did it so that in the future my students will be able to tell who really learned from me and who just read my book!"

2. Did anyone notice the big Japanese flag in the background? Chinese people, especially those old enough to have experienced the Second Sino-Japanese War from 1937 to 1945, are usually still quite resentful towards the Japanese to this day. So there's no way that Feng would willingly show anything substantial in front of the Japanese. My guess is he probably only agreed to give the demonstration due to diplomatic pressure from the government.


However, on a side note, I believe there's also the possibility that the head butt has to do with Feng's background in Xinyi, the style he practiced in his youth that is known for using the head as a weapon.

[Shi Xingbao]

In this deep level of gong fu, which master Feng had, those stupid "applications"also works I think, that uncle Feng showed applications because people want to see it. People who don't understand, TJQ is not about "dead" applications(like Japanese MA) but about principles and unlimited "applications". 死练功夫=练死功夫

[Finny]

People who don't understand, TJQ is not about "dead" applications(like Japanese MA) but about principles and unlimited "applications". 死练功夫=练死功夫

lol

says the guy with extensive knowledge of JMA..

I really dislike the parochial anti-Japanese/anti-Chinese attitudes of some in the MA.. I recently watched an interview with a 'leading' Japanese budo scholar who straight faced said 'the Japanese sword combines the best of both types of Chinese swords (meaning jian and dao) in that it can slash or stab..' What rot.

I've studied Asian history and am well aware of the origins of this mutual antipathy, but in this day and age we should collectively work to eradicate old biases and be open with the truth. What you've written is rubbish, and does nothing to promote taiji by attempting to diminish JMA

[Shi Xingbao]

Hi, maybe I said it a little bit stupid, It is not about China x Japan war, I like both these countries, I mean in Japanese MA (I practiced Judo and Aikido before switch to Chinese MA) the method is teach the applications and combinations of applicaations. In Chinese MA doesn't explain the applications but teach the principles based on fundamentals instead. Disciple must after perfect absorb the fundamentals should find out himself the unlimited amount of "applications" of each movement.Maybe some Japanese MA also do it by this way, but I didn't reach this level.

People who don't understand, TJQ is not about "dead" applications(like Japanese MA) but about principles and unlimited "applications". 死练功夫=练死功夫

[/quote

lol

says the guy with extensive knowledge of JMA..

I really dislike the parochial anti-Japanese/anti-Chinese attitudes of some in the MA.. I recently watched an interview with a 'leading' Japanese budo scholar who straight faced said 'the Japanese sword combines the best of both types of Chinese swords (meaning jian and dao) in that it can slash or stab..' What rot.

I've studied Asian history and am well aware of the origins of this mutual antipathy, but in this day and age we should collectively work to eradicate old biases and be open with the truth. What you've written is rubbish, and does nothing to promote taiji by attempting to diminish JMA

[richardman]

Chen Xiaowang learned almost all his TJQ from Feng Zhiqiang, his wushu uncle. Chen Xiaowang didn't learn from Chen Fake. Feng Zhiqiang, Tian Xiuchen, Chen Zhaokui and Li Zhongyin took the TJQ back to Chen Jiagou...

I don't practice Chen (anymore) and have no dog in this fight, but as an amateur martial arts history researcher, no one else is going to dispute this point?

Because I am sure there are interviews where CXW laughs at such and similar statements. Chen Zhaopei was alive and despite the suffering he incurred due to the Cultural Revolution, was the primary teacher of the "4 Jingdan", and in fact, one can see the difference between the Da Jia Lao Jia (Village style) and Da Jia Xin Jia (Beijing Style).

[charles]

I don't practice Chen (anymore) and have no dog in this fight, but as an amateur martial arts history researcher, no one else is going to dispute this point?

Does it really matter?

There is no question that CXW learned "some stuff" from Feng. Did he learn "almost all his TJQ from Feng"? Probably not. They didn't get along. It is not surprising that CXW would give little or no credit to Feng or get back at Feng for the slights he feels, perhaps rightly, Feng did to him. Politics and personal disagreements. Feng's gone, time to move on, for both sides of the grudge, including their disciples, students, students of students, etc.

[richardman]

Does it really matter?
...

Only to historians. amateurs or otherwise.

[Shi Xingbao]

I don know what exactly Chen Xiaowang said in that interview, but he has no monopol to the truth, everyone from elder generations know that there was no Taijiquan in the Chen Village many years. Chen Zhaopi ALSO lived in Beijing and his master (and uncle in family) Chen Fa Ke had disciples only there. Chen Fake came to Beijing since his nephew Chen Zhaopi invited him. Maybe Chen Xiaowang doesn't like it and these "4 Jingang' s" wish to cover this fact to prove the continuity of the style in Chen village. But is is undeniable historical fact and I can talk about it with elder brother CXW anywhere and anytime . And I am absolutely sure he will agree. In fact they ALL who went back to the village to teach new generation of villagers (primary to develop the business in the village and take the prosperity to the very poor place, which Chen Jiagou was after Cultural revolution,) was all disciples of Chen Fa K: Feng Zhiqiang, Chen Zhaopi, Chen Zhaokui, Li Zhongyin and others went to the village to teach them. And also Chen Xiaowang travelled to Beijing to learn from them, he got tutorial from Feng Zhiqiang, Li Zhongyin, Tian Xiuchen, Hong Junsheng and other's. (When I met CXW in 1999 year and told him that my master and his uncle Li Zhongyin just passed away, he pretended to mishear it, so I was very disappointed of his disrespect to such amazing master and his uncle who also taught him, but I have also no right to criticise the elder generations so excuse me.) The same CXW as the wushu tradition has no right to doubt or criticise his uncles of higher generation-(brothers of his master Chen Zhaopi under his grandpa Chen Fa Ke) , and he in fact doesn't . What is he doing in the footage is only presents different view about the application of the form, which has MANY applications. The application which shows amazing fighter Feng Zhiqiang (which is very usable, how is seen also in Sanda fights) has the same value as what CXW shows. But CXW is wrong when he says that something is mistake or misunderstanding of form. Feng Zhiqiang liked it this way and he knew how to use it. Since every master like some his favorite applications of the same form. I don't know the purpose of making this video, but it shows no wrongs of the FZQ or CXW but only stupidity of author of this video (who want to push disciple and master to the opposition and contradiction) and his low knowledge of wushu. And also the lack of wushu etiquette...

Chen Xiaowang learned almost all his TJQ from Feng Zhiqiang, his wushu uncle. Chen Xiaowang didn't learn from Chen Fake. Feng Zhiqiang, Tian Xiuchen, Chen Zhaokui and Li Zhongyin took the TJQ back to Chen Jiagou...

I don't practice Chen (anymore) and have no dog in this fight, but as an amateur martial arts history researcher, no one else is going to dispute this point?

Because I am sure there are interviews where CXW laughs at such and similar statements. Chen Zhaopei was alive and despite the suffering he incurred due to the Cultural Revolution, was the primary teacher of the "4 Jingdan", and in fact, one can see the difference between the Da Jia Lao Jia (Village style) and Da Jia Xin Jia (Beijing Style).

[marvin8]

I don't have any opinion on the subject. However, I found this comment on youtube interesting, when I read it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtNcBci3eeI:

TriEssence Martial Arts1 year ago (edited)
To sldtaiji : Out of all those names u mentioned, only Feng Zhi Qiang is really a high level master, the Chen village people is not even close to his level, becuz Chen Fake died in Beijing before he could pass his knowledge to the Chen village, so I dono why u even mentioning them together. And although they all call it taichi, Chen family's stuff is very different to Yang family, the kind of power in question started with Yang family, so its only natural that the Chen family doesn't have it.

As for Yang Zhendou, he is from Yang Cheng Pu lineage, anyone who knows enough about Yang family taichi should know that there are huge discrepancy between Yang Cheng Pu lineage and Yang Ban Hou/Yang Shao Hou lineage, the later claim that former to have changed Yang family taichi into a over simplified workout routine and has lost most of its deep knowledge. If you go watch footage from Wang Yong Quan who was from the Ban Hou/Shao Hou lineage, you can see the things they do are way different from conventional Yang lineage such as Yang Zhendou, hence its really not surprising that u don see the masters u mentioned do this kind of power.

One thing that most people doesn't understand about Chinese martial art world is that textbook fame masters are usually not the real top masters, names such as Chen Xiao Wang Chen Zheng Lei etc are example of masters with textbook fame, they are direct family of Chen village and therefore had the government support all along in their raise to fame. Masters such as Feng Zhi Qian actually raise to fame because he had to opportunity to prove his skill against a foreigner challenger. Many other masters with real skill doesn't get an opportunity like Feng, and thus is still not famous via conventional means. I know this because I have been visiting and searching for real taichi masters for many years, and all the ones that is recommended by official means are not actually too great compare to those I meet in some random park.

Published on Jan 17, 2016
Chen Style Taichi demo in Japan October 1992 with Master Feng Zhi Qiang and Wang Feng Ming.

Part 4 of 4:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTtQKOPQxWQ

[jonathan.bluestein]

In support of Shi Xingbao's comments and observations:
http://molingtaiji.com/chen-taijiquan-s ... ult-years/

[GrahamB]

Some say Feng and Hong were made the standard bearers of the art as it had died out in the village. Others say that's nonsense and Feng got his arse kicked when he tried to go back to the village to 'teach'. Who knows?

Either way, it's interesting that whoever is preaching whatever version of history is almost always a practitioner of the branch of the art whose story they are plugging - either Beijing or village.

Human nature, eh?

[willie]

Some say Feng and Hong were made the standard bearers of the art as it had died out in the village. Others say that's nonsense and Feng got his arse kicked when he tried to go back to the village to 'teach'. Who knows?

Either way, it's interesting that whoever is preaching whatever version of history is almost always a practitioner of the branch of the art whose story they are plugging - either Beijing or village.

Human nature, eh?

I think that your suspicions are justified, something happened that is not being discussed.