Chen Xiaowang Slams Feng Zhiqiang Applications

[willie]

How the taiji forms could be applied practically in a fight baffled me for years. Most of Yang Chengfu's application photos seemed absurd and ridiculous, as were Cheng Man-Ching's similar interpretations. The dilemma persists today, as those who remember the bickering here about Single Whip a while ago will know.

Once someone in the know shows you how, the clouds disappear. The form is simply a method to develop the subtle body skills and physical framework, in which the techniques remain deeply hidden at first. When the right feelings start to arrive (the different 'jins') the applications appear naturally from the forms.

Most of them are pretty counter-intuitive and invisible to the ordinary observer, who may assume that, for instance, when your front hand pushes forward and your gaze follows that you must be striking something with it. Not so - you may be training to to stretch, open or snap something. Is a clenched fist only for hitting? I may do it because I want to smash something with my ulna or elbow; the fist is there simply to transfer extra solidity to the point of impact.

Watch how He Jinbao applies bagua principles to fight, often in seemingly weird ways, or the many shoulder, back and elbow techniques hidden in Feng Zhiqiang's demonstartions and you'll start to get the general idea behind this. Plenty of people here already know that, of course.

Wanting to hide the real skill is a traditional Chinese cultural thing and made practical sense in martial arts' original context (would you show a potential enemy you have a gun?). Martial sports-minded Westerners dislike it, but then plenty of Chinese dislike it too - which is why they prefer more obviously practical systems like sanda, boxing or muay thai. Once they understand what IMA really have to offer they often modify their views.

I am neither a student of anyone in this debate or Chen style either. My point was that whoever you are a student of seems to colour your version of history, and that we can't know either way what happened.

If you're interested, find someone with decent background and skills who isn't a student of FZQ or CXW and has touched hands 'for real' with both of them. At least you'll then have a chance of discovering part of that elusive 'truth'.

Just because you don't know doesn't have to mean that no-one else does either.

Btw, I'm referring to the recurring question about who has what and how they got it. The larger historical background may be of interest mainly to theoreticians, philosophers and scholars. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Just one man's view, of course.

I am in total agreement with this post. so I will share a communique between me and my old yang style teacher.
But first realize that my Yang style teacher " A Judge of IMA" Has shared many hours with me at my home.
That way you can understand that it's not the sub-real relationship that you would find in schools.

Yang teacher " Will. Based on the evidence, I'm pretty sure you're learning the best "human" style on the planet, or very close.
I hope I can work with you again".

Me "that doesn't mean that your style isn't what I have said many times to many people.
your great. this is just different. it's made more for ending the engagement."

Yang teacher "I wonder if you should read (or re-read) Zhuangzi. It really sounds a lot like the position you're taking, concerning your art."

Me "I don't believe in reading books, they are open to mis-interpretation.
you will only get your own idea's, not a direct understanding.
I have every answer that I have answered and shown to me directly, there is no error that way. "

Yang teacher "You are correct about direct transmission.
I didn't mean that you'd learn anything from books about your art. I only meant that you might learn something about society or people in general, and how they see or don't see your art, and maybe about how that could be a good thing (instead of frustrating, disappointing, etc.). It's nice to know that some other people know what you know or feel how you feel."

Me "the right side of the mind must awaking to comprehend the entire art as one.
we as human's are not smart enough to comprehend, it's an awakening of the mind.
just like a super computer. every move is just there faster then even the input from
listening. once this accurse then all the moves from the forms fit together like a rubric cube.
The deep sadness associated with taiji is removed. laughing and excitement replaces it.
it's unbelievable. worth millions to a deaf audience. forget them..."

Thanks.

[lazyboxer]

"If you're interested,"... and that's where you lost me....

Good. Then go on.

[lazyboxer]

How the taiji forms could be applied practically in a fight baffled me for years. Most of Yang Chengfu's application photos seemed absurd and ridiculous, as were Cheng Man-Ching's similar interpretations. The dilemma persists today, as those who remember the bickering here about Single Whip a while ago will know.

Once someone in the know shows you how, the clouds disappear. The form is simply a method to develop the subtle body skills and physical framework, in which the techniques remain deeply hidden at first. When the right feelings start to arrive (the different 'jins') the applications appear naturally from the forms.

Most of them are pretty counter-intuitive and invisible to the ordinary observer, who may assume that, for instance, when your front hand pushes forward and your gaze follows that you must be striking something with it. Not so - you may be training to to stretch, open or snap something. Is a clenched fist only for hitting? I may do it because I want to smash something with my ulna or elbow; the fist is there simply to transfer extra solidity to the point of impact.

Watch how He Jinbao applies bagua principles to fight, often in seemingly weird ways, or the many shoulder, back and elbow techniques hidden in Feng Zhiqiang's demonstartions and you'll start to get the general idea behind this. Plenty of people here already know that, of course.

Wanting to hide the real skill is a traditional Chinese cultural thing and made practical sense in martial arts' original context (would you show a potential enemy you have a gun?). Martial sports-minded Westerners dislike it, but then plenty of Chinese dislike it too - which is why they prefer more obviously practical systems like sanda, boxing or muay thai. Once they understand what IMA really have to offer they often modify their views.

I am neither a student of anyone in this debate or Chen style either. My point was that whoever you are a student of seems to colour your version of history, and that we can't know either way what happened.

If you're interested, find someone with decent background and skills who isn't a student of FZQ or CXW and has touched hands 'for real' with both of them. At least you'll then have a chance of discovering part of that elusive 'truth'.

Just because you don't know doesn't have to mean that no-one else does either.

Btw, I'm referring to the recurring question about who has what and how they got it. The larger historical background may be of interest mainly to theoreticians, philosophers and scholars. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Just one man's view, of course.

I am in total agreement with this post. so I will share a communique between me and my old yang style teacher.
But first realize that my Yang style teacher " A Judge of IMA" Has shared many hours with me at my home.
That way you can understand that it's not the sub-real relationship that you would find in schools.

Yang teacher " Will. Based on the evidence, I'm pretty sure you're learning the best "human" style on the planet, or very close.
I hope I can work with you again".

Me "that doesn't mean that your style isn't what I have said many times to many people.
your great. this is just different. it's made more for ending the engagement."

Yang teacher "I wonder if you should read (or re-read) Zhuangzi. It really sounds a lot like the position you're taking, concerning your art."

Me "I don't believe in reading books, they are open to mis-interpretation.
you will only get your own idea's, not a direct understanding.
I have every answer that I have answered and shown to me directly, there is no error that way. "

Yang teacher "You are correct about direct transmission.
I didn't mean that you'd learn anything from books about your art. I only meant that you might learn something about society or people in general, and how they see or don't see your art, and maybe about how that could be a good thing (instead of frustrating, disappointing, etc.). It's nice to know that some other people know what you know or feel how you feel."

Me "the right side of the mind must awaking to comprehend the entire art as one.
we as human's are not smart enough to comprehend, it's an awakening of the mind.
just like a super computer. every move is just there faster then even the input from
listening. once this accurse then all the moves from the forms fit together like a rubric cube.
The deep sadness associated with taiji is removed. laughing and excitement replaces it.
it's unbelievable. worth millions to a deaf audience. forget them..."

Thanks.

"The deep sadness associated with taiji is removed. laughing and excitement replaces it.
it's unbelievable. worth millions to a deaf audience. forget them..."

I love that bit, Willie. It's so true.

Dong Yingjie talked about a "wonderful feeling between the flesh and the bones" that taiji adepts experience. "Once you get it," he went on, "it's just like dancing - you never want to stop (practising)."

Yes, that's what it's all about!

[Shi Xingbao]

"Feng got his arse kicked when he tried to go back to the village to 'teach'. Who knows?" I KNOW. This stupid boasting is the speciality of generation of students of Chen Fake's grandstudents... (13Th generation). When I held the dinner with Zhu Tiancai, one of pressent disciples of Chen Xiaowang there said this stupid nonsense. And elder brother Zhu Tian Cai didn't say nothing and become awkward with red face. This boasting of these people to boot-licking to their masters is the GREAT shame of the Chen wushu family and deny of all wushu morality, Chen Fake rolls in grave... Again, as the thousand years of wushu tradition, Feng Zhiqiang was their 长辈, except direct disciples and children of Chen Fake he was their shishu, UNCLE. the brothern of their masters. Feng Zhiqiang was the one who sat next to Chen Fake's son Chen Zhaokui when he died, he was the one who with open heart taught Chen style of Chen Fake in village again. When some suck of Chen family says that Feng Zhiqiang was beaten in Chen Jiagou, he should say by WHO??? Where is THE MASTER who kicked his ass? This is the great shame and the one who say it should be kicked out from the Chen style community. Howgh.

Some say Feng and Hong were made the standard bearers of the art as it had died out in the village. Others say that's nonsense and Feng got his arse kicked when he tried to go back to the village to 'teach'. Who knows?

Either way, it's interesting that whoever is preaching whatever version of history is almost always a practitioner of the branch of the art whose story they are plugging - either Beijing or village.

Human nature, eh?

[willie]

"Feng got his arse kicked when he tried to go back to the village to 'teach'. Who knows?" I KNOW. This stupid boasting is the speciality of generation of students of Chen Fake's grandstudents... (13Th generation). When I held the dinner with Zhu Tiancai, one of pressent disciples of Chen Xiaowang there said this stupid nonsense. And elder brother Zhu Tian Cai didn't say nothing and become awkward with red face. This boasting of these people to boot-licking to their masters is the GREAT shame of the Chen wushu family and deny of all wushu morality, Chen Fake rolls in grave... Again, as the thousand years of wushu tradition, Feng Zhiqiang was their 长辈, except direct disciples and children of Chen Fake he was their shishu, UNCLE. the brothern of their masters. Feng Zhiqiang was the one who sat next to Chen Fake's son Chen Zhaokui when he died, he was the one who with open heart taught Chen style of Chen Fake in village again. When some suck of Chen family says that Feng Zhiqiang was beaten in Chen Jiagou, he should say by WHO??? Where is THE MASTER who kicked his ass? This is the great shame and the one who say it should be kicked out from the Chen style community. Howgh.

Very nice, Thank You. This is what I want to see more of.
Again Thanks