Chen Xiaowang Slams Feng Zhiqiang Applications

[Andy_S]

I remember buying the first Eng lang book on Chen Taiji in Malaysia around 1995. The book features Chen doing his 38 form, and Feng doing apps for the first and second Chen forms.

I remember thinking - even back then - that many of the apps were ineffectual to the point of being plain bloody stupid. Dan Docherty also publicly criticized Feng's moves in the book, and it seems that Chen XW - who is hardly a hard-core combat man - is equally critical.

I concur with Chen on this - leaning down and punching someone in the foot is sillier than kicking them in the head - but the question is why Feng showed such ridiculous methods?

Clearly, Feng had an awesome rep as a fighter in the wider wushu community and has trained some guys who very clearly have solid combat skills (eg Chen Xiang, who is currently being respectfully discussed on another thread on this page).

Was this a classic case of, "In public, teach them wrong?"



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3WwVGrpYg0

[charles]

Andy,

What is your purpose for posting this thread? It is well-known that FZQ and CXW had differing opinions on things Taijiquan and that their personal relationship was "strained". Each publicly criticized the other.

There are many possible applications for the movement in question. If you watch the video again, despite what he "says" watch what he actually does. Punching the opponent's foot isn't what he does. Look at the recent thread on Liu Chengde, regarding the hand that isn't doing the action and how it is being used to indicate the direction of the "jin". Don't confuse the external choreography with the actual action being applied. It is, perhaps, more the case that students don't understand what they see, rather than his teaching/showing something that is wrong.

Remind yourself that Taijiquan is not about the choreography and overt movement. It's about something more subtle, such as how force is developed and directed/redirected. The example Feng has given is about that, not punching the opponent's foot. Try it yourself. Do the head-butt he is showing with and without the "punch" to the opponent's foot. Pay attention as you do it....

Was this a classic case of, "In public, teach them wrong?"

More a classic case of, "I'll show it to them, but they won't understand what they see." A classic case of hidden in plain sight. As Chen Zhonghua used to say, "There is no point in my keeping secrets; even if I give it to them they still won't get it."

[cloudz]

oh Andy Andy Andy. It's to stop him falling down when he headbutts the guy in the balls. Come on, that has to be the greatest application ever!

[cloudz]

that direction (downward) I think is needed to stabilize, unite and balance the body overall, improving the power delivery by the head. Without it the body is in a much weaker position.

edit. thinking about it's not that different from the rear hand going back and out when kicking forward for example

[ors]

Dear Charles!

You are right, but...
And this (I hope) can be a simple answer to Andy's original question.
This is not a simple demo. This is (I mean Feng's) a demo in Japan! In Japan!!!
I just hear as my teacher answers your question with a brutal laugh saying something like that: "Hahaha! Feng laoshi showed this to the japaneese guys?? Really? Hahaha!"

Örs

[jonathan.bluestein]

Dear Charles!

You are right, but...
And this (I hope) can be a simple answer to Andy's original question.
This is not a simple demo. This is (I mean Feng's) a demo in Japan! In Japan!!!
I just hear as my teacher answers your question with a brutal laugh saying something like that: "Hahaha! Feng laoshi showed this to the japaneese guys?? Really? Hahaha!"

Örs

LOL

That's exactly what I was thinking... That it's so silly that he must have done this on purpose and for a reason. It's not unheard of that Chinese masters would intentionally teach bullshit to people outside of their inner circles.

[windwalker]

look at how its done, one is done using speed and power, the other using sensitivity and displacement.
A demo, is not teaching its a demo. Being a demo, in some cases its better to show what looks easy but is
hard to do or not easy to understand.

[cloudz]

I think I've seen the longer clip of that demo, and it didn't strike me as being full of misdirection in the applications shown (could be wrong).. Overall though I think leaning forward to butt is a good technique to have, whatever your target..(within reason!)

[AllanF]

If someone grabs the back of your neck to pull you forward, going with the energy and leaning forward can be very effective, the punch on the foot is something i've never 'got'. If you're leaning forward and he is off balance then that same strike would be better as a punch in the nuts.

Both applications can be used, there is no 100% right and 100% wrong answer.

[Franklin]

could have been as simple as he wanted to show something that looked just like the form
but did not want to get into any throws or takedowns....

one of my teachers (not chen style) has an app that he likes- where he headbutts the solar plexus
but then when he does it he is also attacking the groin and/or using it to setup scooping the legs... or just driving you backwards...
he also likes to attack the legs/knees/ankles/top of foot
with all sorts of things (weapons) depending on his level changes...

so to me - this app doesn't look too strange...

Franklin

[charles]

Dear Charles!

You are right, but...
And this (I hope) can be a simple answer to Andy's original question.
This is not a simple demo. This is (I mean Feng's) a demo in Japan! In Japan!!!
I just hear as my teacher answers your question with a brutal laugh saying something like that: "Hahaha! Feng laoshi showed this to the japaneese guys?? Really? Hahaha!"

Örs

Feng returned to Japan numerous times to teach and demonstrate. He had a large following there. There are a number of commercially-produced Japanese videos of him teaching and demonstrating serious material, some of which does not, to my knowledge, exist on any other commercially made video of him. Hence, your suggestion may be valid, or not.

[jaime_g]

I think a good application of feng idea is an ankle pick with head pressure. Works even better if the opponent pulls you down

[Bhassler]

.

[Andy_S]

Charles:

The purpose was stated in the OP. I am seriously at a loss. If he was teaching something to do with counterweighting the body or somesuch, perhaps there is sense to it, but s for it being an efficacious application of a move - well, let's agree to disagree. IMHO, as a combative move, it is verging on the ridiculous. "It" being the punch to the foot; the head butt to the stomach; or any combination thereof.

I think I gave the Feng and Chen book away to a student, but IIRC, many of the other applications were at best, ineffectual, and at worst, downright silly. (And as noted in the OP, far more experienced Taiji fighters than I have gone public with a similar criticism of that particular book.)

To reiterate: Clearly, Feng was a serious player and clearly, a number of his students have considerable fighting skills. I don't see them here, though, and that is what I was wondering about.

My sense is that Ors' comment above is probably right, but given that Fengs shows the same material in his English language book, I think it is not just the Japanese who go some very questionable teachings from this master...

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

I found Charles' answer to be obviously correct. More important than the "application;" Look at the shen fa of Feng and how he moves compared to Chen. No wonder he handled fisticuffs for the state.