History of Qi Gong , Tai Chi Chuan, Bagua

[GrahamB]

This one is really interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-5tTrVEygE

[GrahamB]

I'd be interested to know, how does he know that Yang Lu Chan was physically a big, strong man? We know Yang Cheng-Fu was big, so there's evidence it was in the genes, but are there contemporary accounts of his size?

At least with Dong there's a drawing of him that makes it look like he was physically very big.

[GrahamB]

At 28 minutes he even covers "tucking" and before that "intention" - it's great - this lecture like a summation of RSF over the last year

[Mr_Wood]

nice, watched one of his lectures a while back and was very interesting and informative. Been trying to find it again for while with no success, glad it's come up again

[Steve James]

Hmm, I dunno, even YCF wasn't that big in his early days. Afa YLC, it'd be interesting to know the sources that he uses when it comes to the physical description. Afa the sign saying, "I can beat anybody." I think that would mean that the Chen's also kowtowed to him. But, let's say it was true. If YLC was a guy with a 30 inch (ok 28 inch) neck, who didn't get that way from doing a slow form, then what in Chen or Yang tcc will develop such great size and strength? If it wasn't from the tcc, otoh, then was it from his previous training or his natural ability? Wouldn't he have been formidable if he'd studied any other art? And, if one practiced what the speaker is arguing, wouldn't he have a bigger neck?

Anyway, I think he's making a lot of stuff up to fit his interpretation for his presentation. But, for his students, I think that's good. I'm not sure that he actually demystifies anything, especially when he talks about not "breaking the middle" and qi related stuff. I'm not denying it; I'm just saying that it's just as mystical.

[Steve James]

Btw, years ago a guy named Peter Lim was among the first to collect stories about YLC and the tcc styles. Here's part of his note on YLC.

http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/histnote.htm

7. The story goes that Yang was invited to the abode of a rich man in Beijing called Chang who had heard of Yang's great skills to demonstrate his art. Yang Lu Chan was small of build and did not look like a boxer, when Chang saw him, he thought little of his ability and so served him a very simple dinner. Yang Lu Chan was fully aware of his host's thoughts but continued to behave like an honoured guest. Chang later questioned if Yang's Tai Ch'i, being so soft, could defeat people. Given that he invited Yang on the basis of his reputation as a great fighter, this question was clearly a veiled insult. Yang replied that there were only three kinds of people he could not defeat: men of brass, men of iron and men of wood. Chang invited out his best bodyguard by the name of Liu to test Yang's skill. Liu entered aggressively and attacked Yang. Yang used only a simple yielding and threw Liu across the yard. Chang was very impressed and immediately ordered a sumptuous dinner to be prepared for Yang. He later asked Yang to work for him, offerring him a large sum of money. Yang, knowing the character of Chang, courteously refused the offer.

8. An interesting story comes down to us concerning the quality of Yang's teaching in the Imperial Court. The princes of the Manchu court were very often skilled in martial arts. Emperors like Chien Long were skilled martial artists. Among Yang's students at the Imperial Court were several princes. One day one of them went to visit his brother to practice with him, as his brother prince was not at home, he practiced instead with his brother prince's three bodyguards who were also students of Yang Lu Chan. This prince easily defeated them and when his brother prince returned, he berated him saying:"Who is protecting who brother? Your bodyguards you or you your bodyguards?" Yang Lu Chan and the three bodyguards were summoned and they were questioned on why the skills of the the three bodyguards (they were highly skilled martial artists already having studied other arts) were below that of the princes. The reason was revealed that the bodyguards had many duties in the imperial household and they could not spare the time to train diligently as the princes had. Discovering this reason, the prince lightened the workload of the three bodyguards and asked Yang Lu Chan to train them harder. These three bodyguards eventually became Yang Lu Chan's top three disciples, one of them Quan Yu went on to found the Wu form of Tai Ch'i Chuan.

Personally, I think that if YLC was a giant, his reputation would never have been as large as it was. Goliath is only remembered because of David. Same for YCFm, being a big guy would make displays of skill more impressive than if he just lifted an opponent up with one arm. That's not a teachable skill. "If" the argument is going to be made that tcc because famous because of the skill of its practitioners, it can't be based on their enormous size.

[Bob]

As a side note - The Journal of Asian Martial Arts had a discussion of Yang Chengfu's posture changes over his life. They provided photographs of him when he was in his 20s and quite frankly he was quite skinny and in his what, 50s and 60s [died young] he was somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 lbs.

So when Yang Chengfu was in the early stages of his life and training he was no where as big as he was in his 50s and 60s.

Just a point of information and no attempts to stir the pot.

[GrahamB]

By 'big' I also meant tall - presumably he was as tall in his 20s as he was in later life.

[shawnsegler]

At 28 minutes he even covers "tucking" and before that "intention" - it's great - this lecture like a summation of RSF over the last year

At 28 minutes he even covers "tucking" and before that "intention" - it's great - this lecture like a summation of RSF/tehrealzEF over the last 15 years

Fixed.

S

[Deadmonki]

I'm not sure that he actually demystifies anything, especially when he talks about not "breaking the middle" and qi related stuff. I'm not denying it; I'm just saying that it's just as mystical.

Hi Steve,

I nearly posted this the other day, but didn't. Let me clarify, at least from my experience.

Andrew was a production assistant, alongside his teacher Prof Wang Jin-huai, on the Bill Moyer's Chinese episode 'Healing and the Mind', and they called the episode "The Mystery of Chi". Andrew feels that when Chinese traditions move West people overly make a big deal out of and overly mystify "qi". As a kind of in-joke and I suppose a sort of rebuttal of such things when he started teaching he called the entry level seminar "De-Mystifying Qi". So that is where the title comes from.

If you watch the Bill Moyers episode, you will see what is left of the interviews with a young Andrew and one of his teachers, and it comes across as something that is not quite what was going on. The power of editing and presenting something to grab an audience.

The basic format for learning with Andrew, is "De-Mystifying Qi", which is a whole weekend, and includes a lecture of over an hour with Andrew painfully going through a Chinese dictionary explaining all the useages of the term "qi" to show that it is not what most Westerners consider. He then tackles the use of it in Daoist arts and medicine etc. Much of this is online if you wish to watch it, but I've warned you about the hour, at least on youtube you can skip

To get more of the 'full-exposure' watch from the beginning, and go through the intended layers of lecture, then dao yin, then more lecture, etc. Random bits out of the context of the whole may miss part of the entire message being conveyed. Next is the "Tangible Qi" work, and things go from there. You work with the Dao Yin and with partnered bodywork, and yes MANY mis-conceptions about what "qi" is or is not, and why the Chinese arts use it and how, ie what it is referring to etc are laid to rest during this process.

Andrew does not say that what he is doing or teaching, on a pragmatic level, is anything special or better than any good 'qigong' etc. So if you have learned good solid practices from a legit teacher, much of what Andrew goes through will be old hat. And yet, you cannot deny that many silly notions persist about these things. And that is what he is attempting to address and to dispel. Because if you are going to be learning the medicine in particular, then you need a firm grasp of the concepts and what they refer to.

I will also say, that Andrew intentionally uses a teaching style that is desgined to get us to think for ourselves and to be autonomous and not simply zombie students. His explanations of "qi" runs the whole gamut from "there is not such 'thing', as qi", to "of course there's qi". Regardless, on the practical side he can teach you to manipulate both your own body-mind, and that of a patient, regardless of what terms or words you decide to understand what is going on with. And will do so by stripping it back and making it easy(ish), and not hiding behind a ton of mysticism.

He doesn't consider what he is teaching in these workshops as anything special or difficult, he does however feel it is foundational and is what is getting more and more lost in the transmission, certainly of medicine, which is becoming more and more intellectual and theory based, and not experiential. For myself it reinforced, and confirmed many things I already knew, for others it broadened how to understand them, and it also filled in gaps and holes in my education.

Best,

[Steve James]

Hi, I really don't have any problem with his explanation of the misperceptions or misinterpretations when it comes to qi. He's right that the "chi" in taichi is not the "chi" of tcm, certainly. I think I understand how at his complete workshop he may say that "qi" exists and doesn't exist, or how "intention" is not doing.

My problem is that he uses speculations about YLC and tcc to support his overall view of qi. There have been several biographers of YLC, but none afaik described him as being a large man. But, if he was, there is no necessary connection to qi or its properties, and I would argue there would be very little to tcc. People who were renowned for the art, or just for being martial artists, came in all sizes and shapes. In YCF's second book, "Practical Applications" iinm, with illustrations of him in youth and older age, the preface is careful to state things like "the stout and sturdy one" is YCF in his later years. Now, one could argue that YCF's tcc made him bigger, but more would say it was either from over-eating or disease.

Perhaps it was used for effect, but either YLC was born with particular physical characteristics (a huge neck) or he developed it through what he practiced before tcc "or" he got it from practicing tcc. The latter, I would argue, is the least likely. Check any picture of Chen Fake or any of the current Chen or Yang tcc masters.

So, I just don't think that such a speculation supports any conclusion about qi or its function/use in tcc. I have no problem with his interpretation. It just doesn't demystify qi or tcc, for me. Of course, I think that much of what he points out to his audience is very worthwhile. I don't think that the stories about YLC are useful or demystifying.

[windwalker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Vj1tgTqrPg

The basic format for learning with Andrew, is "De-Mystifying Qi", which is a whole weekend, and includes a lecture of over an hour with Andrew painfully going through a Chinese dictionary explaining all the useages of the term "qi" to show that it is not what most Westerners consider.

In china its quite clear for the most part, none of it is considered mystical, just part of their daily view of life.
thought the org. bill moyers, program was quite well done.

[Deadmonki]

My problem is that he uses speculations about YLC and tcc to support his overall view of qi....

So, I just don't think that such a speculation supports any conclusion about qi or its function/use in tcc.

First, please note that the lecture is not "The History of Taiji Quan and its Masters", or "The Secrets of Qi within Taiji Quan" It is a lecture to better understand the views of qi within Chinese arts, being given to TCM practitioners.

All Andrew is addressing is that many have ended up with the notion that the martial art of Taijiquan is nothing more than a flouncy form of qigong, and is all about the "qi". And that training a form in this way will magically convey martial prowess to you. He is pointing out that martial arts are more than that. Whether or not his brief description, given to an audience primarily of TCM practitioners, is 100% historically accurate or not I honestly don't think truly matters. I can however appreciate how such things can bug someone who knows the history and events etc more accurately.

All he is doing is attempting to help people break free of preconceived notions. And the idea that Chinese martial arts is NOT all about "qi" ( ie there is a lot of other training that develops the body) is something I would have thought most on RSF would have agreed with

In china its quite clear for the most part, none of it is considered mystical, just part of their daily view of life.

Exactly, I have talked to my wife (Chinese) about how so many things in Chinese are quite mundane, and yet when you translate it into English it becomes something that sounds fantastical and mystical, when its not.

I enjoyed the Bill Moyers episode too

Best,

[Mr_Wood]

I think what he says about intention is correct although I also think we can describe what people are looking for by using such words as concentration or effort or focus.

[Steve James]

All Andrew is addressing is that many have ended up with the notion that the martial art of Taijiquan is nothing more than a flouncy form of qigong, and is all about the "qi". And that training a form in this way will magically convey martial prowess to you. He is pointing out that martial arts are more than that.

I'd never disagree with that conclusion.

Whether or not his brief description, given to an audience primarily of TCM practitioners, is 100% historically accurate or not I honestly don't think truly matters. I can however appreciate how such things can bug someone who knows the history and events etc more accurately.

Well, I wouldn't say that I know the history as much as that I've read translations of many of the early accounts, and none made quite the same claims about YLC. But, it's possible there are sources that say different. I agree that, ultimately, they're just stories. Afa why YLC got the name "Yang Wudi" (the invincible) is probably going to be a matter of legend rather than historical record. I understand and agree with Andrew's point that it wasn't because YLC had more qi --if that's it. I simply disagree (or would require more evidence) to assert that it had anything to do with his size. I think that would have made him less remarkable. That doesn't mean that he was weak or that his tcc practice didn't make him strong, or that it was just practicing a slow form that did it. Undoubtedly, he worked full time on his gongfu.

Personally, I think that the best place to learn the history is from the people who currently represent the various family styles. Ok, the problem is that, in the most traditional Yang families, the legend will have a Chang Sanfeng origin. However, with regard to YLC, the family legends do not recount him as a braggart. I happened to have Louis Swaim's translation of another of YCF's books. In YCF's preface, he mentions a conversation with his granddad, YLC.

"Sit down and let me tell you. This art that I practice and teach to others is not for taking on enemies, but for protecting one's body. It is not for saving the world, but for helping the nation. The gentlemen (junzei) of today know only that our nation's troubles come from poverty; they still do not understand that our nation's sickness lies in its weakness. ...

Since I was young, I have taken on saving the weak as my responsibility. I have often seen marketplace martial artists (mai jie zhe) with vitality and physique by no means inferior to so-called strongmen (dalishi), or proponents of bushido. I was thrilled, and inqujired into their arts, but they were secretive and unobliging....

Later, I heard of the boxing reputation of the Chen family in Henan's Chenjiagoug, so I made the long trek there to study with Master Chen Changxing....

When I had completed my studies, I came to the capital, and made a vow to fulfil my aspiration to teach people openly.

YLC clearly thought of himself as strong compared to the majority of his countrymen. But, I think the early writings about him give a different impression than the one given in the video.