Eccentric exercise, breathing, body contraction, grip

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Eccentric exercise, breathing, body contraction, grip

Postby Andy_S on Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:44 pm

Useful exercise video for those into overall conditioning, rather than those interested exclusively in IMA training.

The breathing stuff will not be new to anyone here but the stuff on timing of eccentric exercise, of contracting the entire body and gripping when doing bodyweight and weight work all look like useful tips. I was familiar with eccentric (as opposed to contractic) exercise, but had not realized that there is a whole system build around this concept.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoM1h3j4pzs

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Re: Eccentric exercise, breathing, body contraction, grip

Postby kenneth fish on Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:42 pm

Slow eccentric focus and dynamic tension goes way back . Eugen Sandow and my strength teacher Joe Bonomo placed a great deal of emphasis on this aspect of training. Its part of what I teach my strength training students. You should check out "the lost secrets to a great body" by Dave Alexander - most of it is in there too.
However!!! Belly breathing /diaphragmatic breathing as shown here is dead wrong - it inhibits the muscles of the pelvic basin and the paraspinals. Pilates type abdominal contraction and lateral chest expansion is far better for stability and engaging the paraspinals, the muscles of the pelvic basin, and the obliques. Also, driving the shoulders down in the manner shown will put one at risk for a shoulder impingement - a better way to engage the muscles that stabilize the shoulders is to contract the serratus anterior muscles and the latissimus dorsi.
Last edited by kenneth fish on Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Eccentric exercise, breathing, body contraction, grip

Postby XinKuzi on Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:31 pm

Andy_S wrote:I was familiar with eccentric (as opposed to contractic) exercise, but had not realized that there is a whole system build around this concept.


It's eccentric and concentric, not contractic.

Just starting to watch some of the video. It definitely seems like some of what they're doing would create bad habits for the body. I am a fan of eccentric training, though.
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Re: Eccentric exercise, breathing, body contraction, grip

Postby Andy_S on Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:04 pm

Stand corrected on concentric.

Ken, is that a book you are referencing?
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Re: Eccentric exercise, breathing, body contraction, grip

Postby NoSword on Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:25 pm

How does belly/diaphragmatic breathing inhibit said musculature? Not a troll attempt, genuinely curious to know more about this...

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Re: Eccentric exercise, breathing, body contraction, grip

Postby kenneth fish on Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:12 pm

Andy:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Lost-Secret-G ... B008C2MRUO

Andrew: In part due to reciprocal inhibition.
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Re: Eccentric exercise, breathing, body contraction, grip

Postby Bhassler on Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:21 am

Their timing is pretty standard for both bodybuilders and strength athletes-- or if not standard, certainly not unusual. When I hear of an eccentrically based workout, I would think more along the lines of 15 seconds for a negative rep, or possibly longer. The more extreme versions are typically used to break out of a rut, or as a regression if someone is not able to do an exercise (for example, if someone cannot do even one pullup, have them jump into the top position and lower themselves as slowly as they can. Usually about 3 reps is plenty).

Ken, what are your thoughts on the whole "maximal contraction" craze? Things like gripping the bar really hard will by default help with overall muscle activation (alhtough you can learn to grip hard without contracting other things, and vice versa), but something like lying on a bench doing dumbell presses with a weight you can handle for 10 reps hardly requires maximal stability. I lean towards a gradual progression to heavier weights, in which case you can increase the stability (and learn the skill of stabilizing) as you need it, rather than jumping right into maximal contraction for sub-maximal tasks.
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Re: Eccentric exercise, breathing, body contraction, grip

Postby kenneth fish on Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:07 pm

Bhassler:

We are on the same page. I train and teach weightlifting emphasizing gradual gains with maximal stability - lifts are done slowly, without "explosive" movement. One of the tools I have fun with is teaching one-armed lifts (overhead press, overhead press in side posture/side bow). Also leveraged lifts (we use a sledge hammer) - these are great ways to demonstrate stability or lack thereof. I am with you on the negative training too. I also tend to emphasize compound movements - most of our lifting is geared toward that as an end product.
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Re: Eccentric exercise, breathing, body contraction, grip

Postby Andy_S on Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:40 pm

Ken:

Thanks for that, interesting and controversial-looking book.

Why do you not teach explosive movement? I do a fair bit of plyometric bodyweight stuff as this seems to me to be the movement that has most benefit for MA, but also do slow, controlled lifts and pulls.

Just did a workout of "10-second on the down motion" eccentric training: Very interesting, tough to keep those long timings.
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Re: Eccentric exercise, breathing, body contraction, grip

Postby kenneth fish on Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:39 pm

Plyometric movement and "explosive" finish in power lifting are not the same thing. The explosive finish does not give enough benefits to justify the danger to the elbow and shoulder joints.
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Re: Eccentric exercise, breathing, body contraction, grip

Postby Patrick on Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:35 pm

Dave´s book was made with love, but I feel the information is dubious or wrong. But he is very honest about it.
Buy it if you are interested in old strength methods and want a good explanation on the exercises.


When I hear of an eccentrically based workout, I would think more along the lines of 15 seconds for a negative rep, or possibly longer.


For max. power the ideal method of excentric training is: explosiv(=with max. voluntary contraction)/140%/1-3 Reps.
This will also induce hypertrophy in type II fibers.
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Re: Eccentric exercise, breathing, body contraction, grip

Postby kenneth fish on Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:56 pm

A very nice gloss of the mechanisms and benefits of eccentric training:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eccentric_training

I believe you are referring to the Brazilian study on "explosive" training and type II muscle development. I found it less than convincing as a study. I also think that there is better evidence for plyometric training as a vehicle for enhancing development of fast twitch fibers.
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Re: Eccentric exercise, breathing, body contraction, grip

Postby Bhassler on Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:46 pm

Patrick wrote:For max. power the ideal method of excentric training is: explosiv(=with max. voluntary contraction)/140%/1-3 Reps.


Can you explain the notation at the end of that sentence? I understand the 1-3 reps, but not the 140% or how explosion and/or max voluntary contraction relate to negative reps.

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Re: Eccentric exercise, breathing, body contraction, grip

Postby Ian on Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:39 pm

I hate these oversimplifications of sports science.

For hypertrophy! You need 40 seconds! Time under tension!

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Re: Eccentric exercise, breathing, body contraction, grip

Postby Andy_S on Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:51 am

The coach in the original post mentions the 40-seconds tension - he coaches the chap in the clip 10 reps at four seconds. I tried this the other night, pretty hard to do.

Speaking eccentric exercise, can anyone explain the pros and cons of higher reps and shorter timings vs lower reps and longer timings?
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