Classic: Kimura vs Helio Gracie, Gracie vs Kato

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Classic: Kimura vs Helio Gracie, Gracie vs Kato

Postby nianfong on Sat May 17, 2008 11:06 pm

1951 Helio Gracie was challenging judoka to matches.

Kimura took a look at him in person and laughed at his size, and said he had to beat his top student Kato first.

with an english narration by a brazilian:

apparently the brazilian challenge was that the fight ended by submission only on a soft mat. ippon did not count, no matter how many times they happened. after gracie's victory (despite several clear ippon by kato, which did very little damage on the soft mat), the fight with kimura was on. This is THE masahiko kimura, who "invented" the joint lock of the same name.

Kimura vs Gracie:

supposedly gracie claimed victory because he was not knocked out by kimura's osotogari. despite being choked out and 2 arm breaks...weird. anyway, from kimura's book:

http://www.judoinfo.com/kimura2.htm
excerpt:
20,000 people came to see the bout including President of Brazil. Helio was 180cm and 80kg. When I entered the stadium, I found a coffin. I asked what it was. I was told, "This is for Kimura. Helio brought this in." It was so funny that I almost burst into laughter. As I approached the ring, raw eggs were thrown at me. The gong rang. Helio grabbed me in both lapels, and attacked me with O-soto-gari and Kouchi-gari. But they did not move me at all. Now it's my turn. I blew him away up in the air by O-uchi-gari, Harai-goshi, Uchimata, Ippon-seoi. At about 10 minute mark, I threw him by O-soto-gari. I intended to cause a concussion. But since the mat was so soft that it did not have much impact on him. While continuing to throw him, I was thinking of a finishing method. I threw him by O-soto-gari again. As soon as Helio fell, I pinned him by Kuzure-kami-shiho-gatame. I held still for 2 or 3 minutes, and then tried to smother him by belly. Helio shook his head trying to breathe. He could not take it any longer, and tried to push up my body extending his left arm. That moment, I grabbed his left wrist with my right hand, and twisted up his arm. I applied Udegarami. I thought he would surrender immediately. But Helio would not tap the mat. I had no choice but keep on twisting the arm. The stadium became quiet. The bone of his arm was coming close to the breaking point. Finally, the sound of bone breaking echoed throughout the stadium. Helio still did not surrender. His left arm was already powerless. Under this rule, I had no choice but twist the arm again. There was plenty of time left. I twisted the left arm again. Another bone was broken. Helio still did not tap. When I tried to twist the arm once more, a white towel was thrown in. I won by TKO. My hand was raised high. Japanese Brazilians rushed into the ring and tossed me up in the air. On the other hand, Helio let his left arm hang and looked very sad withstanding the pain.

a choke out, plus 2 arm breaks = victory.

the interview with helio gracie, where he admitted he went unconscious after the chokeout:
http://www.judoinfo.com/helio.htm

-Fong
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Re: Classic: Kimura vs Helio Gracie, Gracie vs Kato

Postby ashe on Sat May 17, 2008 11:43 pm

nianfong wrote:apparently the brazilian challenge was that the fight ended by submission only on a soft mat. ippon did not count, no matter how many times they happened. after gracie's victory (despite several clear ippon by kato, which did very little damage on the soft mat),


you know, i think the face of mma would look VERY different if the mats were harder. just today i totally rang my bell on the mat during a takedown (incidental) but if it had been on a hard surface, i'd prolly be dead right now... :-\
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Re: Classic: Kimura vs Helio Gracie, Gracie vs Kato

Postby Butterball on Sun May 18, 2008 7:14 am

If I recall correctly, Kimura stated that Gracie could claim victory if he lasted more than 3 minutes in the ring with him, which Gracie did. Lol. I probobly wouldn't feel right claiming victory under rules like that, but then again I don't know what it's like to be in that situation.

Gracie got whupped on bad, but he does deserve some credit as a 140 pound man getting in the ring and lasting pretty long against a much larger stronger heavier and probobly more skilled opponent.
Last edited by Butterball on Sun May 18, 2008 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Classic: Kimura vs Helio Gracie, Gracie vs Kato

Postby Butterball on Sun May 18, 2008 7:17 am

ashe wrote:
nianfong wrote:apparently the brazilian challenge was that the fight ended by submission only on a soft mat. ippon did not count, no matter how many times they happened. after gracie's victory (despite several clear ippon by kato, which did very little damage on the soft mat),


you know, i think the face of mma would look VERY different if the mats were harder. just today i totally rang my bell on the mat during a takedown (incidental) but if it had been on a hard surface, i'd prolly be dead right now... :-\


Lol, it probobly would! Hell, there's been enough knockouts from guys getting slammed from triangles or armbars....
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Re: Classic: Kimura vs Helio Gracie, Gracie vs Kato

Postby ashe on Sun May 18, 2008 9:34 am

Butterball wrote: Lol, it probobly would! Hell, there's been enough knockouts from guys getting slammed from triangles or armbars....

that ain't no joke. then we'd see some old school judo and SC guys "coming up" a lot more. ;)
Last edited by ashe on Sun May 18, 2008 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Classic: Kimura vs Helio Gracie, Gracie vs Kato

Postby OldRed on Sun May 18, 2008 11:14 am

ashe wrote:
Butterball wrote: Lol, it probobly would! Hell, there's been enough knockouts from guys getting slammed from triangles or armbars....

that ain't no joke. then we'd see some old school judo and SC guys "coming up" a lot more. ;)


Throwing skill will continue to slowly work its way back into mma. Throws are devastating from a fighting standpoint, and crowd pleasers from a spectator standpoint. One of the local mma gyms in my neck of the woods has a "no-gi judo for mma" class, taught by a well known judoka with top level competative experience. I'm glad to see it.

Regarding the Kimura/Gracie match, the whole thing was pretty much a publicity stunt, and the "kimura" is a standard application for ude garami to the judo world. It's one of the first joint locks taught and has a lot of variations.
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Re: Classic: Kimura vs Helio Gracie, Gracie vs Kato

Postby nianfong on Sun May 18, 2008 12:12 pm

Butterball wrote:If I recall correctly, Kimura stated that Gracie could claim victory if he lasted more than 3 minutes in the ring with him, which Gracie did. Lol. I probobly wouldn't feel right claiming victory under rules like that, but then again I don't know what it's like to be in that situation.

Gracie got whupped on bad, but he does deserve some credit as a 140 pound man getting in the ring and lasting pretty long against a much larger stronger heavier and probobly more skilled opponent.


ahhh that makes sense why he claimed victory because he stayed conscious from being thrown then. per kimura's account, he was thrown multiple times. in the first few mins. then refused to tap out during newaza. that fortitude alone would win you 3 mins of time. hell being able to let your arm be broken twice.... shit.
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Re: Classic: Kimura vs Helio Gracie, Gracie vs Kato

Postby Butterball on Tue May 20, 2008 5:57 am

That would definitely be cool to see some SC in MMA. There seems to be a pretty amazing number of unique throws that alot of people wouldn't expect; if these throws could be adapted to the no gi/mma environment succesfully it would be pretty impressive to see. What would be cool too would be to see the innovations that come from those techniques when the "counter, re counter" process begins.
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Re: Classic: Kimura vs Helio Gracie, Gracie vs Kato

Postby nianfong on Tue May 20, 2008 12:14 pm

SC throws are all no-gi, so yeah. I think you'll see some SC style throws from cung le in the future.
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Re: Classic: Kimura vs Helio Gracie, Gracie vs Kato

Postby JAB on Tue May 20, 2008 12:22 pm

Throwing skill will continue to slowly work its way back into mma.


What does this mean? There is plenty of throwing in MMA bro!! Have you not been paying attention?

Cung Le has never done SC guys, he is an ex Greco - Roman wrestler.

Cheers
Jake 8-)
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Re: Classic: Kimura vs Helio Gracie, Gracie vs Kato

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Tue May 20, 2008 12:49 pm

JAB wrote:Throwing skill will continue to slowly work its way back into mma.


What does this mean? There is plenty of throwing in MMA bro!! Have you not been paying attention?

Cung Le has never done SC guys, he is an ex Greco - Roman wrestler.

Cheers
Jake 8-)


Just because he has done greco roman does not mena he hasn't done SC, I have seen some SC throws in his other fights, does greco roman have a scissor leg takedown?
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Re: Classic: Kimura vs Helio Gracie, Gracie vs Kato

Postby nianfong on Tue May 20, 2008 1:39 pm

cung le's throws weren't very good til he came to my teacher for pointers. our school has had a good relationship with him and his crew for a while now.
Last edited by nianfong on Tue May 20, 2008 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Classic: Kimura vs Helio Gracie, Gracie vs Kato

Postby JAB on Tue May 20, 2008 1:49 pm

Nian's mention of his training with Weng is the first I have ever heard of it. Cung Le has never mentioned in the interviews I have seen.

I have no clue what Greco has or does not. He picked up the scissor takedown from his San Shou training bro.
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Re: Classic: Kimura vs Helio Gracie, Gracie vs Kato

Postby nianfong on Tue May 20, 2008 2:22 pm

it's ok, we don't look for the recognition. but the truth is there. I believe he asked my teacher for several clinics in his school.
he never really trained with us. he asked my teacher for help.

-Fong
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Re: Classic: Kimura vs Helio Gracie, Gracie vs Kato

Postby OldRed on Tue May 20, 2008 3:02 pm

JAB wrote:Throwing skill will continue to slowly work its way back into mma.


What does this mean? There is plenty of throwing in MMA bro!! Have you not been paying attention?

Cung Le has never done SC guys, he is an ex Greco - Roman wrestler.

Cheers
Jake 8-)



No offense JAB, but it means what it says. Sure there's some throwing in mma right now, but its nowhere near what it could be.
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