Gleason Internal Power

[WVMark]

Welcome to the party. In no way do I wish infer that what Mr Gleason is doing is easy, but it is simple. What you describe as practice fits perfectly what I describe as a form of hypnotism and playing with ukes attention. If you give your teacher a full on attack, what are you doing..? You are pouring massive amounts of attention upon a single point, i.e. your teacher. What is hypnotism in its simplest form, it is concentrated and committed focus of attention upon a single objective. Now how difficult is it for your experienced teacher to play with your attention and energy..? especially if you believe and respect his ability.?

As an experiment do the opposite, don't focus on your teacher, give him no attention and no energy, don't try to nail him, withdraw all effort, disregard him completely. Now see how much he effects you - zilch -, or he has to motivate your attention, enter stage right, the art of atemi.

Aikido is simply the study of uke/nage relationship, but not many teachers talk about this. Without ukes energy there is no aikido. Every year you get better at focusing your attacks thus every year your teacher gets better at playing with this focus. Your relationship of trust grows, he knows you won't actually smash his skull with a bokken (only a psycho would).
Its a game and a very interesting one at that. Ask your teacher if he is simply playing with your attention and focus.

Have you noticed how beginners are dangerous to work with. Their attention is untrained in the art of aikido thus they do random shit and the techniques never work or things are just scrappy. Over time they learn the routine, they begin to focus and take break falls and they become good ukes.

Another way of looking at it. What motivates your arms and legs to attack your teacher, what drives them across the matt at your chosen target, what trained them to break fall or swing a bokken..? . Your attention does all of this and its your attention that gets disrupted by nage.. and then we switch roles and this is called practice.. its great simple fun..

attention, attention, attention,

etc. etc. etc.

If you're looking at most of Modern Aikido and how they teach, I would agree with you. It does have a lot to do with how people are trained from the very start. Your point about beginners don't move or fall like others who have years of training is very true. If something works, it should work with beginners, too. IMO, those high break falls are mostly useless and are ingrained into aikido practitioner's response system. So yes, for most of Modern Aikido, I agree with your points.

Now, I don't train aikido currently. I stopped years ago, in part, because of those weaknesses. And I don't train with Gleason, although I do know him. Gleason isn't doing the things you've written about. Don't mistake what he's doing with Modern Aikido. And no, I'm not here to defend Gleason. He's more than capable enough to do that himself. I'm just making a point that there are some instructors out there in the aikido world who are making some foundational, good changes to get the art back to what the founder himself was doing. It's not a process that's going to happen over night. And undoing all the ingrained weaknesses that Modern Aikido built in (some of which you pointed out) is certainly not going to get done quickly.

[allen2saint]

I cannot recall that I did make claims of any martial superiority. However I will critique anything that claims such without any fundamental evidence.

I think it's kinda dicey to declare oneself the arbiter of truth on a web forum like this. What and how things happen in your school is one thing, but none of us has the right to interrogate people here if it's in the spirit of crediting or discrediting the very validity of their work. I spend my entire day around academics and though it gets pretty rough, even they are much more congenial to each other.They laugh at their differences! An approach like that, cutting down every post or demanding proof of anyone who claims to be competent, is going to make for some loooooong, loooooooong days here.

[Patrick]

None of my posts said anything you wrote. I did not discredit any of His methods as I know nothing about them.

[allen2saint]

None of my posts said anything you wrote. I did not discredit any of His methods as I know nothing about them.

Oh stop it. All your "marketing strategy" sniping. Your approach is clear and if it's partially in pointing out what you see the unfairness of someone who was banned in the past, then it is somewhat understandable...but I think its a bit much already.

I mean, ask all the questions you want, but in my view, if it comes from that negative direction of treating everyone as if they are a fraud, it just makes for a pain in the ass vibe to deal with all the time on these boards....as anyone who's ever experienced the internet can attest to.

[Bodywork]

As regards what Gleason is doing in the vid clips I have seen, happens week in - week out at the club I attend. All Gleason is doing is skilfully playing with uke's attention, a kind of hypnotism. If you have an uke whom you can trust to not mess you around and give you lots of focused energy, then the physical art of aikido is simple, its just a matter of skill training.

Hi guys... I'm late to the party and should probably keep my big mouth shut but I stumbled over the above and felt that I have to comment. I am a current student of Bill Gleason (long-term student, I guess--time flies) and there's just nothing accurate about this explanation at all. I mean, hypnotism? Playing with uke's attention? Seriously? It's not my place to try and interpret my teacher's art, but I can say that there have been any number of times when I've thought, "Okay old man--this time I own you!" and given him a full-on attack, or tried to mess him up halfway through a technique, and I haven't gotten away with it yet. A sempai of mine once told us students it was up to us to challenge him or he'd never get better... I think maybe he was just messing with us, but I've taken the advice to heart. And every year he gets better.

Oh, and to the guy who said he didn't trust anyone who encouraged others to kneel before him... clearly you haven't been introduced to Howard Popkin's "Welcome to prison" technique.

Welcome to the party. In no way do I wish infer that what Mr Gleason is doing is easy, but it is simple. What you describe as practice fits perfectly what I describe as a form of hypnotism and playing with ukes attention. If you give your teacher a full on attack, what are you doing..? You are pouring massive amounts of attention upon a single point, i.e. your teacher. What is hypnotism in its simplest form, it is concentrated and committed focus of attention upon a single objective. Now how difficult is it for your experienced teacher to play with your attention and energy..? especially if you believe and respect his ability.?

As an experiment do the opposite, don't focus on your teacher, give him no attention and no energy, don't try to nail him, withdraw all effort, disregard him completely. Now see how much he effects you - zilch -, or he has to motivate your attention, enter stage right, the art of atemi.

Aikido is simply the study of uke/nage relationship, but not many teachers talk about this. Without ukes energy there is no aikido. Every year you get better at focusing your attacks thus every year your teacher gets better at playing with this focus. Your relationship of trust grows, he knows you won't actually smash his skull with a bokken (only a psycho would).
Its a game and a very interesting one at that. Ask your teacher if he is simply playing with your attention and focus.

Have you noticed how beginners are dangerous to work with. Their attention is untrained in the art of aikido thus they do random shit and the techniques never work or things are just scrappy. Over time they learn the routine, they begin to focus and take break falls and they become good ukes.

Another way of looking at it. What motivates your arms and legs to attack your teacher, what drives them across the matt at your chosen target, what trained them to break fall or swing a bokken..? . Your attention does all of this and its your attention that gets disrupted by nage.. and then we switch roles and this is called practice.. its great simple fun..

attention, attention, attention,

etc. etc. etc.

Sorry, you are not seeing what you think you see. That's okay. No harm, no foul. And I know that you understand that Bill is not fighting he is just doing an art form. And in case folks are wondering...Yes....Bill is intimately aware of the differences.

I know in great detail what he is actually doing and interestingly what he is doing works on a group of people that another big shot famous Japanese sensei says that same group of people? He can't move anymore. Hypnotism hardly applies since that same group of people latched on to said Japanese sensei and just stood there looking at him as he tried to move them with his "internal power."

From Bill to me
Aikido ukes cooperate. And for sure those people are cooperating to a degree. Bill, is doing some limited work to show some finite things IN AN AIKIDO MODEL!
What Bill is working on...is part of a larger model. When doing seminars I frequently use Aikido people to show what is going on as well. They move with forces in such a way that it makes a more clear model of what I am doing on the inside and outside. Then...I grab less cooperative people, then...I grab grapplers or MMA guys who don't move that way and change to a better attacking position. Why do I do this in open rooms with now well over 3,000 witnessed accounts? Because I am showboating? Please...many people who come to my seminars are decades long, cross trained martial artists, who could give two shits about being impressed by yet another yahoo. I do it because it clearly shows people that what I am teaching fits in multiple models and does not depend on attaching to someone else's center, does not need or require techniques. From one to the other example; it is not dependent on cooperation, it is not dependent on styles. It is the foundation of martial techniques and highly effective across platforms, from empty hand to all types of weapons, classical and modern.

Assuming too much when watching Aikido, taiji or or any art really.
Here is an interesting point. Sometimes I can also use someone who IS A GRAPPLER, and ask him to first do aikido ukemi and then when asked? Turn on to fighter mode. How is that? Where did these guys come from? Believe it or not, I know some seriously capable military spec ops guys who are also, Bjj and judo cross trained who are killers, real snake eaters (Yes! actual, very real, experienced killers) who choose to do aikido in a flowing cooperative manner. I sometimes voluntarily call these guys "sir"..... unasked. My point? NEVER assume when watching videos of men doing an art form, of knowing what else they can do or have done...from them doing a simple chosen art form.

Edit: The superior Martial artists
And therein lies another point about the question of superior martial artists. Those guys I mentioned above? They ARE SUPERIOR to the vast majority who do not know and have not done what they know and can do. Its just the way it is. What do we say to others like them, that although they lack military experience, have serious real life experience, fighting experience and who can go from ground to standing, in hundreds of years old techniques, on to traditional weapons to new weapons and with internal skills and aiki? Like it or not, there simply are superior artists out there in various forms.
My dad taught me its safer to offer respect before, than to have to pay the price later. It can be costly!

Annnnny way.... I am actually showing folks how to change their body, how create internal power and how to express it. So we can all understand our own arts better.
Dan

[dogsbody]

Emptycloud -- There you go. Dan gave you a much more complete and generous response than I would have--I was going to throw up my hands and walk away. BTW, there's nothing he's said vis a vis Aikido or the work Sensei is doing that I would disagree with.

[Zonker]

FAQ12 says that RSF goes on the rag every 6-8 weeks. I'm guessing we're in that 6-8 week cycle, huh?
Great post, WVMark! Thanks for that!

[emptycloud]

Emptycloud -- There you go. Dan gave you a much more complete and generous response than I would have--I was going to throw up my hands and walk away. BTW, there's nothing he's said vis a vis Aikido or the work Sensei is doing that I would disagree with.

I dunno Dogbody doesn't Dan's last post simply reinforce my point that aikido is simply a study of the uke/nage relationship, if you break that relationship then you are doing something else.

My point was, if uke gives nage no energy to work with then the whole thing falls flat. Which is why top aikido guys demo with highly trained ukes and not unlearned beginners. I don't think I am against anything anyone has posted in this thread, I am just trying to update the language of aikido to fit the 21st Century.

We know that the motive force of any attacker or uke is his brain sending signals to his arms and legs, his arms and legs are not the problem, his brain is the problem. Switch off the signals from brain to arm and legs then the attack ceases. Why bother dealing with uke as a physical mass, deal with uke as psychological mass. If uke is trained to take ukemi and nage is trained to receive uke's attack then we are simply dealing with a psychological relationship between two people. The use of the word hypnotism is loose, but it fits the interaction well enough. The whole process of putting on a gi, stepping on to matts, etc, is a form of hypnotic priming.

If you think aikido is anything more than the study of brain signals to muscles organised around a very interesting cultural activity,then thats cool,I am not saying its wrong. I just cannot see as anything more than that.

I will try and come up with something more erudite (like GrahamB). I have been in the sun all day and my brain is sloppy...and I can see a bottle of wine afore' me and some anchovies and is that a women...ye gads.. sod aikido.. stay cool - have fun

[Bodywork]

Uhm ....no!
You continue to define aikido as an agreement....in modern aikido. So the discussion depends on what you are talking about Modern kata in aikido or aiki in aikido, and you need to qualify that. As an aside I think there is nothing wrong with kata training (if you are into that). For the most part the Japanese arts depend on it. But when it comes to aiki...in aikido, there are differences.
Example:
I don't wear a keikogi.
I don't need an agreement or ukemi and my aiki works.
I don't need an uke giving me any force either.
I don't need uke to cooperate at all.

As I say to Shihans around the world;
First up, if your aikido doesn't work against a fighter than that's on you. Why doesn't it work?
Next, "Aiki has no form, has no shape, has no techniques." Ueshiba said it over and over. What did he mean? What was he doing? Sadly he said these things to a largely ignorant, and mostly incompetent audience. As do I. Nothing has changed. We need to make the change!
Why is it that when tested against the very principles your own founder trained and suggested were the essence of the art you claim to know- you continue to fail, one after the other in either understanding, (and for most part even knowing) what he was talking about or even that he said it? Why? Because for too many of you, your own teachers and fellow students are your one source of knowledge and nothing else. Your depth goes back one generation. Your depth is equal to a shallow puddle. So far in my experience in open rooms your teachers display a 100% failure rate. And 98.6 % of you... after feeling this...choose to train this way. Why? Because it speaks for itself. Ueshiba was right. He was always right. This is aikido. It is what you were supposed to be doing.
Now, am I saying "No one in Aikido does aiki in aikido?" ABSOLUTELY NOT... just that it is rare and I haven't felt it yet.

Again, I say, just because 2,000,000 do something does not make it correct or even make it aikido. All it does is make it a thing 2,000,000 agree to do. We need to do a better job. We need to fix it.
Dan

[dogsbody]

Gah. If uke gives nage nothing, and nage gives uke nothing, nothing happens. True, but not worth the pixels it took to say. Also, true in any situation including boxing, mma, tiddlywinks.

Also true that practically, any encounter is constrained by the rules of the encounter. If we're practicing a shomen strike, I'm not going to mix it up and strike tsuki. Also true of any other situation--I'm not going to start kicking in the boxing ring. Also irrelevant.

Also somewhat true that if I'm going to hit someone, I'm going to put some attention on him. But that's not going to be my only focus--"soft eyes" and 360 awareness are basic concepts in Aikido and other arts. We train not to be hypnotized in that sense.

Not true that when you do Aikido as in the OP video, uke has the option to let go because nage is not pushing down. If uke lets go, he gets a fist in the face. This has been tested. Not true that uke can switch directions and pull nage off balance, because nage isn't pushing with his arms. This has been tested. Not true that uke has to be a student of nage, or an experienced Aikidoka, or experienced in anything. This has been demonstrated many times. (It is true that it's uglier with inexperienced people because they don't know when they're open and do stupid things.)

Aikido practice is cooperative, but as we do it, cooperative for a purpose. I give the prescribed attack and stay connected so that nage can practice and get better. That doesn't mean I give up my center, or my balance--he has to take it. And if he leaves openings in his technique, I get to exploit them. I might put a hand in his face to show that it could have been a strike, I might block his technique because he's doing something stupid, or I might reverse it because he's left himself open (depending on the situation and our relative levels). The goal is not to be a jerk, but to let nage see naturally where the holes in his technique are.

Seems like we are looking for very different things in our practice and have very different goals, which is fine. I only jumped in because of your post which suggested they were the same. They're not.

[emptycloud]

Gah. If uke gives nage nothing, and nage gives uke nothing, nothing happens. True, but not worth the pixels it took to say. Also, true in any situation including boxing, mma, tiddlywinks.

Also true that practically, any encounter is constrained by the rules of the encounter. If we're practicing a shomen strike, I'm not going to mix it up and strike tsuki. Also true of any other situation--I'm not going to start kicking in the boxing ring. Also irrelevant.

Also somewhat true that if I'm going to hit someone, I'm going to put some attention on him. But that's not going to be my only focus--"soft eyes" and 360 awareness are basic concepts in Aikido and other arts. We train not to be hypnotized in that sense.

Not true that when you do Aikido as in the OP video, uke has the option to let go because nage is not pushing down. If uke lets go, he gets a fist in the face. This has been tested. Not true that uke can switch directions and pull nage off balance, because nage isn't pushing with his arms. This has been tested. Not true that uke has to be a student of nage, or an experienced Aikidoka, or experienced in anything. This has been demonstrated many times. (It is true that it's uglier with inexperienced people because they don't know when they're open and do stupid things.)

Aikido practice is cooperative, but as we do it, cooperative for a purpose. I give the prescribed attack and stay connected so that nage can practice and get better. That doesn't mean I give up my center, or my balance--he has to take it. And if he leaves openings in his technique, I get to exploit them. I might put a hand in his face to show that it could have been a strike, I might block his technique because he's doing something stupid, or I might reverse it because he's left himself open (depending on the situation and our relative levels). The goal is not to be a jerk, but to let nage see naturally where the holes in his technique are.

Seems like we are looking for very different things in our practice and have very different goals, which is fine. I only jumped in because of your post which suggested they were the same. They're not.

Seems like your monitoring nage and not truly committing..?

[AllanF]

If i may, i have quite enjoyed the exchange between Dan and Emptycloud. Cordial, mutually respectful despite coming from opposite poles - the way an exchange should be IMHO.

I am not entirly sure if Empttycloud is speaking from a generic "Aikido is this" stand point or in fact talking from a purely personal "what aikido is to him" possition? If it is the latter then of course then you are right. Anyone's personal opinion on their own personal practice is of course correct for them and them only. It is a bit like all the "tai chi" for health people telling me that taijiquan is just a health exercise and about "feeling the flow" (as one woman told me yesterday in the park) for them that is true but it is not by any stretch of the imagination what taijiquan really is.

All that to one side for the moment, there does appear to be a quite obvious disconnect between what O'Sensei was doing and what he was teaching.

As has been stated the view of aikido that you ascribe to is the one that Kisshomaru Ueshiba promoted, and who tried to marginalize any influence Sokaku Takeda had on O'Sensei's abilities. Takada, of course was a man who was only about fighting, with anyone, at any time under any conditions. Takeda's students included O'Sensei, Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Yoshida Kotaro, Takuma Hisa, Horikawa Kodo and Tokimune Takeda, all of who were able to display similar abilities.

However, and this is where i find it difficult to correlate, assuming that O'Sensei was as you say, trying to transmit a spiritual path to his students but only had martial arts to do it, then it would surely be recognized by one and all as being a very imperfect vessel with which to achieve any spiritual goal. Therefore the question is, as you are alive and he is dead, and that you have a vast array of far superior spiritual vehicles available, why then choose aikido to do it?

While i wouldn't wish to detract from the enjoyment of the interaction between uke and tori, would it not be more interesting to be able to have the same abilities when uke isn't "playing along"? For example from a simple hand grab, if uke gives or doesn't give you power you should be able to do whatever you want or any contact from an uncooperative partner would still result in instant unbalancing.

The other issue i have about the interpretation of aikido is that, if his students didn't understand what he was saying and then someone translated what his students said into language X, then it strikes me that the margin for error is astronomical! It's a bit like the thousands of changes and edits there has been to the bible! What Jesus really meant to say was, "Take some mushrooms, lie a field of green grass and realize that everything is one!" (Bill Hicks was my pastor!)

[EDIT: Having just watch the William CC Chen video, it strikes me that that clip is an excellent example of evidence for the margin of error. He was asked a couple of straight questions but gave no answer just spoke about 'energy in the fingers not the arms', 'the heart' etc. It is of little wonder that 99.99% of people just don't have a clue about taijiquan.]

[Bodywork]

Gah. If uke gives nage nothing, and nage gives uke nothing, nothing happens. True, but not worth the pixels it took to say. Also, true in any situation including boxing, mma, tiddlywinks.

Also true that practically, any encounter is constrained by the rules of the encounter. If we're practicing a shomen strike, I'm not going to mix it up and strike tsuki. Also true of any other situation--I'm not going to start kicking in the boxing ring. Also irrelevant.

Also somewhat true that if I'm going to hit someone, I'm going to put some attention on him. But that's not going to be my only focus--"soft eyes" and 360 awareness are basic concepts in Aikido and other arts. We train not to be hypnotized in that sense.

Not true that when you do Aikido as in the OP video, uke has the option to let go because nage is not pushing down. If uke lets go, he gets a fist in the face. This has been tested. Not true that uke can switch directions and pull nage off balance, because nage isn't pushing with his arms. This has been tested. Not true that uke has to be a student of nage, or an experienced Aikidoka, or experienced in anything. This has been demonstrated many times. (It is true that it's uglier with inexperienced people because they don't know when they're open and do stupid things.)

Aikido practice is cooperative, but as we do it, cooperative for a purpose. I give the prescribed attack and stay connected so that nage can practice and get better. That doesn't mean I give up my center, or my balance--he has to take it. And if he leaves openings in his technique, I get to exploit them. I might put a hand in his face to show that it could have been a strike, I might block his technique because he's doing something stupid, or I might reverse it because he's left himself open (depending on the situation and our relative levels). The goal is not to be a jerk, but to let nage see naturally where the holes in his technique are.

Seems like we are looking for very different things in our practice and have very different goals, which is fine. I only jumped in because of your post which suggested they were the same. They're not.

Seems like your monitoring nage and not truly committing..?

Truly committing to what? Kata? Like I SAID... you're talking about an agreement.

If I or others I know, truly committed there is no one I have met or seen in Aikido who could handle it with Aikido.
We are not taking about the same thing.
Dan

[Bodywork]

Allen
Ueshiba, like Takeda before him, taught some giants as well; Mochizuki, Shirata, Shioda, Tomiki, etc.
I'm not a fan of kata much, but too many people said these guys had unusual power and could deliver in an instant.
Dan

[Zonker]

My point was, if uke gives nage no energy to work with then the whole thing falls flat.

I'm a bit late responding to this post, sorry. I have to, respectfully, disagree. Kuroiwa Yoshio sensei got me thinking very hard about the aikido being taught to me here in the U.S. and how that differed from what I wanted to practice, many years ago. When discussing how aikido training differed in the 1990's as opposed to when he trained with O-sensei, he told me the way aikido was being practiced now (i.e. uke grabs nage, nage breaks uke balance [kuzushi] and executes some technique) was only half the game. Then he showed us what he was talking about and tossed us around the Starbucks we were in. Sensei went on to say that yudansha level aikidoka should be training to be able grab either uke or nage, at any time, control them, break their balance and execute either a throw or take down. Sensei went on to say that he was not talking about kaeshiwaza (reversals) but the ability to initiate and take control of a person's body, absent any attack. This is NOT how aikido was practiced when I started in the 90's, nor, to my knowledge, is that how aikido is practiced today. After reading the subsequent posts since EC's quoted statement, I think it's fairly clear, well, at least to me, that "modern aikido" lacks the "aiki" part and that the "cooperative" nature of aikido practice that has been touted by Aikikai honbu was not what O-sensei was about. "Aiki", as I understand it, isn't a joyful, bonding experience based upon harmony, but rather a devastating martial ability, gained through years of rigorous training. My problem today: Kuroiwa sensei has passed on and I haven't found anyone who had that understanding and ability to teach it.