Some great taiji stuff.

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Some great taiji stuff.

Postby XiaoXiong on Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:17 pm

I want to start a thread with the best examples of what ever one thinks of as true Taiji or Internal skill.
Here are some examples of what I'm looking for in my own pursuit of taiji knowledge.


Please enjoy and comment constructively.
Jess
Last edited by XiaoXiong on Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some great taiji stuff.

Postby dspyrido on Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:35 pm

Before we get into the usually collapse can I ask an honest question or two?

Is the "attacker" actually going with the flow & performing the stumbling/falling over like an aikido uke?

If this is the case & this about training the student (attacker) to learn to bounce off/fall over (uke like) what are they training?

What is the goal of the instructor in this excercise? Are they training or showing something?

Is there a mandarin equivalent to the term uke (aikido/bujinkan version - not judo)?

If it's not a submissive situation (meaning that this is happening against the student's desire) then is the assumption this would work on the uninitiated like me? Would the assumption be I would just get offbalanced & thrown by resting my hand on the instructor? If so is then anyone up for the challenge?
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Re: Some great taiji stuff.

Postby bruce on Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:07 pm

Hi Jess,

In your opinion Is tai chi chuan a method of self defense?

Is the practice shown in these videos training self defense?

How does this practice relate to a person stopping a mugger or a drunk jock from beating you up and taking your cell phone?

Is this for health?

What is the goal of this training?

How does it relate to stopping a person from assaulting?

How long would one need to train in order to us this as self defense against a average male attacker?

Why do you think this is great tai chi chuan?

Please do not take offense at my questions but I question the practicality of this demonstration of tai chi chuan.
Last edited by bruce on Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some great taiji stuff.

Postby windwalker on Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:08 pm



a good clip explaining a lot of what is seen in the first 2 clips
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Re: Some great taiji stuff.

Postby windwalker on Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:30 pm

Is the "attacker" actually going with the flow & performing the stumbling/falling over like an aikido uke?

having had the same experiences, its not a matter of going with anything. Its a reaction to what is felt.


How long would one need to train in order to us this as self defense against a average male attacker?
Why do you think this is great tai chi chuan?
Please do not take offense at my questions but I question the practicality of this demonstration of tai chi chuan.
best,


the question was directed at the OP,

these are my views.
there are many in China, who would question what many in the west call taiji, they would tend to smile at the lack of skill displayed by most.
from the simple things like the idea of not using force.
the clips shown are good examples of principles at work, with a skilled teacher.

you asked about weather they are practical


its the same things as shown in the first clips to a lesser degree.
weather its useful or not depends on the skill and understanding of the practitioner.

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:31 am
Everything I said about Neigong and training methods is all wrong. I have been so utterly convinced that the opposite is true that I withdraw all of my former opinions on the matter

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21343

a good thread that underlines the fact that what may seem not real is only due to the fact that not many reach
the point where it becomes so. Most of the teachers really have nothing to prove, they get it, and understand it.
as for challenges as some one mentioned,
Unless I'm superslick in being able to convince all the people to do this bogus act, as you call it, there must be those who have refused, don't you think? If I'm bogus, then those who have refused probably won't stay, will they? You would most definitely leave, won't you? Guess what...so shall others. Now, go and find them, and have them tell the world that I've been asking people to participate in a bogus push hand sessions where they are purposely make themselves ridiculous, and at the same time, making me super-extraordinary. This would be your solid evidence to support your allegation with absolute credibility, and you will be credited in debunking me.

You and your other big fish in a small pond-minded people who know nothing about Classical Yang Family Tai Chi Chuan have made your groundless, petty accusatory opinions countless times about our power pushing training, and yet, none of you has managed to come up with any solid evidence to prove what we are doing is a bogus or a parlor trick. In fact, most of you don't even have enough courage to come and check for yourselves.

Do you know why you won't come? Because you would then have to show me your power, which most of you probably don't have much anyway, as I will show you my internal power. Discovering how weak you are is a bitch, if not embarrassing.

http://www.nytaichi.com/sparringvideo.htm
Would the assumption be I would just get offbalanced & thrown by resting my hand on the instructor?

there are people out there willing to demo, and take on any comers
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Some great taiji stuff.

Postby XiaoXiong on Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:56 pm

Great questions. The "attacker" in these videos are just people like most people. The aren't cooperating or performing. They are being used as a model to demonstrate the internal skill of taijiquan used to off balance and hit the center. This can be used for self defense in very obvious and practical ways that should make sense to anyone with a concept of fighting. If you find you are off balance and essentially falling the only way to do an effective technique is to try to return to your root or borrow balance from your opponent. This plays right into the strategy of taijiquan. The idea of lead into emptiness is to make somebody rely on you for balance and then subtlety shift the kinesis of the body to create a falling in them, thus you use zhan nian lian sui, stick adhere connect and follow, to set up what you wish to within the relative situation. In these videos to goal is to practice this skill of imbalancing and breaking the root as subtly as possible with as little effort and movement as possible. The idea is to control the "attacker" from first contact. That is what is being demoed here.

The assumption is that they can do this to anyone. Like me or you or probably most people even better than us at common martial arts skills. The don't practice the way aikidoka or judoka do largely because they had to hide the old ways so much during the revolution. So they would say its just for health so they weren't jailed or worse. This is how taiji survived, under disguise and behind closed doors. There are not so many people left who are really transmitting this knowledge to further generations, and many who claim to don't really have this skill.

I think this is good taiji because I've done my homework. I have spent the last few years gradually researching and getting more and more into it, and I've managed to find a couple of people who can do these things, to anybody. Some better than others, but mostly one who is really experienced. Just for reference I should say that I'm pretty experienced, and pretty good at what I do. But I suck at the internal stuff. I have been doing bagua and xingyi for over ten years, I have several hundreds of hours of logged bjj lessons and rolls etc... The main person I'm looking to for knowledge and direction has abilities to do things beyond my comprehension or current ability. When they grab my wrist for instance it's quite hard to escape, and I am easy to off balance. When I do the same they throw me with my own strength, or effortlessly slip out of the grip as if I had no purchase at all. I have pushed with national ph champs, and many taiji teachers, and this is something else. A higher level. That's enough for now.

Here's some one even better.


Jess
Last edited by XiaoXiong on Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some great taiji stuff.

Postby bruce on Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:09 pm

Hi Jess,

Thanks for the reply. Lots to consider and learn.
You seem to have a practical outlook on investigating these methods.
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Re: Some great taiji stuff.

Postby XiaoXiong on Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:45 pm

Wind walker, I started this thread thinking of Maarten's. Thanks for bringing it up here.

Here's a question. Why is that anyone would (you know who you are) would deny the martial utility of the internal skills as demonstrated in the clips above? One reason often given is that they don't finish the fight or seem pugilistic. The reason for this is the cultural revolution. Another is that it's fake, but it's not. The reason I believe applies to all cases of doubters is that they have a different conceptual framework which does not yet include these methods. These are the internal methods guys. This is what internal means. If you can't do this stuff on some level you are external. I am mostly too. It's ok. I know many here have spent lives pursuing these skills, and many still don't have them. The vast majority. But it's ok. The real stuff is still there somewhere if you have the eyes to see and the will to pursue. Take an honest look at these clips and ask yourself if you are really doing internal gong fu or just an image of it. This is what internal is all about. This is high level gong fu.
Jess
Last edited by XiaoXiong on Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some great taiji stuff.

Postby XiaoXiong on Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:07 am

Some more. Very good stuff here. This teacher is in Seattle I believe.

Jess
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Re: Some great taiji stuff.

Postby XiaoXiong on Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:19 am

The best of Chen style IMHO.

Has some internal stuff going on for sure.
Jess
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Re: Some great taiji stuff.

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:19 am

XiaoXiong wrote:Here's a question. Why is that anyone would (you know who you are) would deny the martial utility of the internal skills as demonstrated in the clips above? One reason often given is that they don't finish the fight or seem pugilistic. The reason for this is the cultural revolution. Another is that it's fake, but it's not.


IMHO, the question of fake or not is not a good question. We see something happen in this kind of clips, sometimes we don't know the circumstances and what exactly is demonstrated. But we see something happen and because something happens we can say that what we see in the clips "works". We can all see that something happens and that in these circumstances, the demonstration works. Another dum question is: "Do the same methods work exactly like the demonstration if it was real combat" The answer we can all agree with is "no". We can all see that in a real fight, no one would attack by pushing another persons arm or stand like there was no fight going on. So there must be some changes. So the real interesting question should be: How do you need to adjust a method in order for it to be useful in real combat. Or: How would you use certain principle or method in real combat.

So what do you think XiaoXiong, how would you use the principles in real combat?
Last edited by Bao on Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Some great taiji stuff.

Postby XiaoXiong on Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:25 am



Self defensy enough?
Jess
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Re: Some great taiji stuff.

Postby XiaoXiong on Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:52 am

I just saw the last post Bao. Theanswers is I imagine I would apply them with the same techniques I've been using for years just with a different kind of mechanics and different mindframe and feel. I use the principals mostly to neutralize as of now. I think if you use your imagination you can see that these teachers are being nice. If you look at Chen Yu you start to see more how he uses it. I personally don't know about the fighting skill of these teachers. I can't comment, but the people who make me feel totally worthless in martial arts, they feel stupid crossing hands with these guys.
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Re: Some great taiji stuff.

Postby Finny on Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:33 am

Sorry, but no one is going to convince me that the first clip in this thread is not fake - without producing some kind of LKJ effect on ME in person.

The 'dummy' is just ridiculous. There is a point around 25, 26 seconds in (IIRC) where he doesn't even give himself time to make physical contact with the old gent, before performing his weird foot stompy hop-along routine.

I should point out, I've seen, felt and experienced some 'weird' things from folks, but they have ALWAYS relied on actual physical contact

That shit be absurd
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Re: Some great taiji stuff.

Postby AllanF on Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:37 am

I agree with Finny, int he first clip it is quite clear that the "attacker" isn't putting any jin in his contact in fact i would go so far as to say his jin is returning to himself at best!

This is significantly better and more practical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjKNs7kt5Go

Last edited by AllanF on Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:40 am, edited 3 times in total.
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