Some great taiji stuff.

[Patrick]

I cannot understand how someone who studied with Pedro sauer can like this. This is pure bs (not Chen yu).

[windwalker]

Wind walker, I started this thread thinking of Maarten's. Thanks for bringing it up here.

Here's a question. Why is that anyone would (you know who you are) would deny the martial utility of the internal skills as demonstrated in the clips above?
Jess

thanks, for a good thread

it is interesting in that even with Maarten's thread there seems to be a limit as to what he will accept as with others who are limited either by their own self made box, or lack of exposer.

In some ways this is understandable in others its not. Not on what purports to be an internal site.
what I have found that no matter how its explained or even for some felt in person most still want the feed back of feeling power and force and are unable to let it go.

When a wise man hears of the Tao,
he immediately begins to live it.
When an average man hears of the Tao,
he believes some of it and doubts the rest.
When a foolish man hears of the Tao,
he laughs out loud at the very idea.

If it were not for that laugh,
it would not be the Tao.

~Thus it is said:
the path into light seems dark,
the path forward seems like retreat,
the superior path seems empty,
the easy way seems hard,
the pure seems tarnished,
true power seems weak,
true clarity seems obscure,
true virtue seems insufficient,
the greatest sounds cannot be heard,
the greatest form is shapeless.

~The Tao is hidden and nameless;
Yet it alone nourishes and completes all things.

http://beyondthedream.co.uk/2013/12/10/ ... d-paradox/

the real question:

all leading exponents of taiji past and present all say do not use force and show demos of this idea in action.
why do people who study the art still cling to an understanding based on force?

[XiaoXiong]

Well Patrick, that seems like a good reason for this thread. I asked for constructive comments. The last few are marginal as possibly constructive, so have some manners please.
I'm telling you guys, I know wtf I am talking about. This is good stuff. The clip you posted with the more pugilistic stuff is great. Thats a fine example of taiji skill, but its not any better just because it looks pugilistic. I'm sorry to call you guys out but you just are missing something here because it doesn't fit your pugilistic paradigm. To me these doubts of this kind are based on experience with fraud. Fair enough, its true. There are some frauds around in ima for sure, but the reason I believe in these vids being superb examples of taiji skill is that I have studied it a bit quite carefully, and finally got to experience this kind of skill personally, and I was proven wrong about any doubts I had.

I'm asking you guys to trust my judgement only enough to seek out these skills for yourself. This thread exists for the purpose of giving people examples to guide and inspire them toward seeking and studying real internal skill. If you don't believe in this skill being useful in combat and you want to share that opinion please do so with some reasonable cogent and polite statements with examples of what lead you to that conclusion. I feel as if we, the internal martial artists, are our own worst enemies. If you believe at all in internal skill or in my credibility, then please consider that I am telling the truth. There is a guy in several of these videos who can do at least some of these skills to anybody. He showed me. These are some of his teachers. If you just refuse to accept that this might be truly useful martial arts skill then Don't Follow the Thread. I am calling on the ones who have access to examples of internal skill or interest in it. Please hold your tongue if you just want to call bs and take your marbles home.
Jess

[XiaoXiong]

I agree with Finny, int he first clip it is quite clear that the "attacker" isn't putting any jin in his contact in fact i would go so far as to say his jin is returning to himself at best!

This is significantly better and more practical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjKNs7kt5Go

You are right in that the guy who is the uke in the first clip is not very skilled. It's still really real. His Jin is returning to himself. That's how taiji is supposed to work. I'm glad you shared an example, but it's not really any better, it's the same skill. It just fits your paradigm more comfortably because the examples provided are pugilistic. If you understand Sun Tzu and the art of deception then you can see that people can be more subtle and profound in their martial skill than swinging limbs and such. This is how masters would know each others skill by merely shaking hands. This is how internal skill survived the cultural revolution in China. By hiding in plain sight.
Jess

[XiaoXiong]

Here's some less internally skilled (imo) but more obviously martial taiji applied.


Jess

[XiaoXiong]

Xie Bingcan I understand is a true authority on the subject of Yang Taijiquan.
Jess

[cloudz]

Most of what you have posted looks a certain way.. (first page of the thread) I think you should look at the following clips that I'm going to post on your thread, which I think show high level traditional tui shou skills. One is from Zhabao and one from Wu hao style and a few more.. Notice how they differ from some of what you have posted on this thread. You seem to explain the difference a different way ie. you are witnessing and experiencing true higher level ("internal'") skill, where as I think we are simply witnessing a difference in the way certain people train and react..

I don't think we are seeing these group of masters showing a "lower level" internal level than another.

In these clips you can understand the issuing and leading that is happening in connection to the actions seen, in some of your clips this relationship is quite unclear. You are by your own admission getting started in Tai ji, so my advice would be keep an open mind for now. A year or two down the line you may feel differently about some of this.. or maybe not. But your journey is your journey at the end of the day.




And a few more for good measure, Lin Mogen:


Ma Yueh Liang


Ma Jiang Bao


Tung Hu Lin


Please notice the Mah Yueh Liang clip and the difference in effect against that training partner to some others floating around of him. I believe that is his son in the clip, whomever it is I think it shows realistic reactions to high level push hands skill. Quite different to some other clips, including some of what you posted. Anyway hope you enjoy the clips and that it's kind of thing you were after for this thread.

[dspyrido]

I agree with Finny, int he first clip it is quite clear that the "attacker" isn't putting any jin in his contact in fact i would go so far as to say his jin is returning to himself at best!

This is significantly better and more practical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjKNs7kt5Go

You are right in that the guy who is the uke in the first clip is not very skilled. It's still really real. His Jin is returning to himself. That's how taiji is supposed to work. I'm glad you shared an example, but it's not really any better, it's the same skill. It just fits your paradigm more comfortably because the examples provided are pugilistic. If you understand Sun Tzu and the art of deception then you can see that people can be more subtle and profound in their martial skill than swinging limbs and such. This is how masters would know each others skill by merely shaking hands. This is how internal skill survived the cultural revolution in China. By hiding in plain sight.
Jess

So if the "attacker" were well trained &/or combative would it look like this video (or chen yu's stuff) whereas if they are going with the flow they would appear like the original video or the ones where there does not appear to be a physical connection?

The problem is that the on-contact ones are subtle yet visible & therefore can be understood.

For the ones where the "attacker" is thrown with no visible connection - then what force is at play here? If it's not a force & is intent based then are we in the realm of hypnotism or mental manipulation which also deals in conscious & subconscious connection/manipulation?

[XiaoXiong]

Here's one guys pov.

His name is Ian Sinclair. He has many YouTube vids worth watching.
Jess

[windwalker]

seen the clip before dont really agree with his view points, a lot depends on the skill of the people that one meets.

ingyiquan is an Internal Martial Art from day one. You start doing Santishi and cultivating. The goal being to have a surplus of Zhen/ Yuan Qi, which results in a surplus of Ying and Weiqi (Defensive Qi) which is the qi that moves in the layers of the skin and can 'exit' to outside the skin, or 'enter' (ru) back into the deeper layers of the fascia and interact with the Ying Qi that runs in the fascia and the meridians.

For the ones where the "attacker" is thrown with no visible connection - then what force is at play here? If it's not a force & is intent based then are we in the realm of hypnotism or mental manipulation which also deals in conscious & subconscious connection/manipulation?

The Ming Jin stage is working to build up a lot of Weiqi and emanate a threat, be vicious. The skin is like a layer of steel. The opponent is back-peddling away before the strike even lands.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21362

no one seems to question much of what was translated on this thread.
why is it then when some of it is put into action, as in the clips shown it then becomes questionable?
one would think that most high level taiji would reflect much of what was written.

is intent based

many use this word intent, it would be interesting to understand what they mean when they use it?

[wayne hansen]

The only guy with any real skill is the Wu guy

[Ron Panunto]

I want to start a thread with the best examples of what ever one thinks of as true Taiji or Internal skill.
Here are some examples of what I'm looking for in my own pursuit of taiji knowledge.


Please enjoy and comment constructively.
Jess

I see a lot of bullshit in these two videos and little Taijiquan skill.

[AllanF]

Deleted as a double post

[XiaoXiong]

Care to explain or are you just calling bs with no explanation? These one liners are a waste of time and space here. Join the discussion but please don't detract from it.

Cloudz; those clips were excellent. I definetly see the relationship of the movement more obviously in them, though I have seen some of those teachers also do some where it was more hidden. Thanks for sharing. I think I am still trying to understand the many facets of taijiquan, so thanks for the perspective. I definetly like those clips a lot.
Jess

[AllanF]

I agree with Finny, int he first clip it is quite clear that the "attacker" isn't putting any jin in his contact in fact i would go so far as to say his jin is returning to himself at best!

This is significantly better and more practical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjKNs7kt5Go

You are right in that the guy who is the uke in the first clip is not very skilled. It's still really real. His Jin is returning to himself. That's how taiji is supposed to work. I'm glad you shared an example, but it's not really any better, it's the same skill. It just fits your paradigm more comfortably because the examples provided are pugilistic. If you understand Sun Tzu and the art of deception then you can see that people can be more subtle and profound in their martial skill than swinging limbs and such. This is how masters would know each others skill by merely shaking hands. This is how internal skill survived the cultural revolution in China. By hiding in plain sight.
Jess

XiaoXiong

When i said "his jin is returning to him" - the "attacker" is not having his jin returned to him by the 'master'. Simply that the attacker is not doing anything at all, he is faking an attack and holding any power within himself - zero power going out therefore it all stays inside himself (returning). How can the 'master' return anything that does not come out in the first place? Taiji as you said can be a way to return an amplified force back to the attacker but the attacker has to issue a force in the first place. Or put it another way it can be a way to amplify the tension in the attacker's body. In the OP the attacker has zero tension in his arms, zero connection being returned to him. In short he's playing up for the master. The master may have real skills, i don't know but the OP isn't real.

As for my paradigm, here is a clip that is less "pugilistic" but still demonstrates a far great exmaple of real taiji body method.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IJvszyF9Yg


or this...

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzI2NDI4NTUy.html

Sunzi/deception etc is all well and good but understanding the theory isn't taijiquan or any "real" internal martial art, it just means you...understand the thoery! IMA is a very well connected and trained body method, not need for deception if you have trained the body. Besides which, and bearing in mind this is a martial art we are talking about, deception will not help you from a sudden attack, a trained body will.

This is not how the arts survived in the cultural revolution if it was then the arts would have died long ago. They survived thanks to people being very careful about teaching, i.e. behind closed doors and having careful and good students. Pure and simple.