Some great taiji stuff.

[Andy_S]

I'd say he is very good defensively at using his spine as an axis (spin throws) and very good offensively at using his shoulder as a battering ram (projections). I have been on the receiving end of both and I did not hop, hoppity hop away - my arse bounced off the deck in both cases.

What I would like to see him doing more of is putting together the full gamut of skills - ie a compound of striking, throwing and locking. But that would not be PH.

And as noted earlier: I don't see other Taiji masters taking on their students in scenarios where the students really are going all-out (within the confines of the exercise) to dump the maestro, full force. Ziqiang does this all the time.

[MaartenSFS]

Hello everyone. I'm sorry that I can't watch all the videos in this thread for now (pain in the arse in China). I'm glad that my thread initiated some discussion. Windwalker is right in saying that I have my limits in what I'll believe. But if I ever meet someone that can take me out without touching I'll be the first to re-recant here, no matter if anyone else believes what I say or not, as I am a man of principle - one with a healthy sense of skepticism. Today I was knocked back several metres into a tree by my teacher. It was nothing but physics that did it, nothing mystical at all. God I love the training. I am going to be such a badarse in three years!

[XiaoXiong]

Chen Ziqiang looks pretty good as a wrestler. He uses a ton of power to make his throws work and they do. Is this high level, no. Its good stuff though. I'm a fan In a way. It just doesn't seem like he uses the taiji principals at all. It's not the same. Not bad, but not the same.
Jess

[windwalker]

agreed, the teacher has good skill, not really interested in this type of skill.

And as noted earlier: I don't see other Taiji masters taking on their students in scenarios where the students really are going all-out (within the confines of the exercise) to dump the maestro, full force. Ziqiang does this all the time.

that are filmed and put up on utube. what most do see are teachers teaching or demos, trying to either explain or showcase a skill set or occasional others that fail like in all other arts, some times things just dont work out.

as was noted earlier, most of the teachers doing what the OP has posted like the students to use as much power and intent as possible. But most students or anyone encountering one with such skills wont as its immediately, intuitively understood doing so would cause injury.

like pushing on a door that suddenly moves, why would one use all their force.

Force can only be applied against force.
hence the idea and concept of emptiness as a method.

as "bodywork" mentioned there is the part of getting the skill, and then being able to apply it.
it takes awhile to do both. Just getting it, can be a huge undertaking the skill sets are so counter intuitive
the tend to be disbelieved until felt.


as was mentioned in this thread "Where did the thread about Ming Jin go?"
many of the higher methods dont get trained or the practitioners see no need to feeling that they have some
skill that works for them. these are skill sets that most see, and feel in use.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21362

There's a lot of Xingyiquan people in China who are perfectly happy just fighting with the 'Ming Jin' stage of skills and strategy and don't want to change-up their personal practice in order to learn the 2nd stage, so the 2nd and 3rd stage of practices are on the verge of being lost, but the stages of refinement for the body movements can occur no matter as they're more based upon doing something correctly for X amount of years will bring about a certain level of refinement. But while these stages require, and depend on that refinement of the body skills, they're not defined or limited to just that, as they have their own tactics and new things to be learned in regards to stepping, hand techniques, etc. that can make better use of those refinements.

many having been through the process in other arts as the OP have come to understand that there is something more and very different. weather its useful or not depends on skill and degree of practice

[windwalker]

Hello everyone. I'm sorry that I can't watch all the videos in this thread for now (pain in the arse in China). I'm glad that my thread initiated some discussion. Windwalker is right in saying that I have my limits in what I'll believe. But if I ever meet someone that can take me out without touching I'll be the first to re-recant here, no matter if anyone else believes what I say or not, as I am a man of principle - one with a healthy sense of skepticism. Today I was knocked back several metres into a tree by my teacher. It was nothing but physics that did it, nothing mystical at all. God I love the training. I am going to be such a badarse in three years!

its not a matter of belief or not, it exist outside of ones self.
it is a matter or weather one is open to the possibility or not.

touching or not the process is the same.

nothing mystical at all.

all things shown in the video clips can be explained using physics, the level of peoples understanding of "physics" is pretty basic, some teachers have tried translating their approach into what some might consider more acceptable western terms using physics.

IMO kind of waste of time, considering that most dont understand really understand physics

The main stumbling block for most is the idea of not using force, such a basic instinctive reaction really its quite hard to
de train the mind/body to accept and use another method.

[XiaoXiong]

I'm glad someone posted Chen Zi Qiang. Do you guys see the difference in intent? Is he doing much of anything with it? I don't think so. Bu Shi Taiji! It's just like sc. John Wang probably would have a field day and love to see a purported taiji exponent training like that. So for me Chen Zi Qiang is good at Shuai Jiao in the guise of taiji. Even Chen Yu who I think is much better, is limited. I really don't see Chen style generally as representing the ideals of Taijiquan. Some Zhaobao looks good. But really it seems the Yang and Wu style folks have the most internal skill that I've seen. I'd like to see if Dan Harden has any good examples of IP on video as well.
Jess

[LaoDan]

my point would be that much of their skill stems from the basic principles and ideas from which "LKJ" arrives from.
its not something "one strives for" but arrives to, naturally with a deepening understanding of the real skill being developed.

I have always said that touched or not the principle is the same. Why any teacher would then say "it is really just a parlor trick" would seem to indicate they never met with any high level exponent of it, and more to the point that they dont seem to really understand the basis of their own art.

Here is perhaps a better translation for this section than Brennan’s. It comes from Jeff (Gu Rouchen):

"This type of energy is extraordinarily profound, bordering on the mysterious. People who witness this don't believe it. In actuality though, it is just a kind of effect upon the consciousness. When high level masters use this energy, all they have to do is shout "ha" and the opponent's two feet will leave the ground and they will jump back. This is because the consciousness of the person being bounced has already been enticed by the master and they cannot resist. This being the case, the person being affected such, must first understand the energies of adhering and sticking. He moves back from (his own) feeling (of these energy changes in the master). Without his first having a familiarity with these energies it will be ineffective."

I think that Chen Yanlin is dismissive because of the statement “Without his [the receiver of the energy] first having a familiarity with these energies [adhering and sticking] it [LKJ] will be ineffective." This seems to reflect the criticisms expressed on RSF, and this seems to be born out in the various clips that have been posted; the receiver of the energy being a trained student of the master. The LKJ skill does not seem to be effective against bystanders (even those standing close by) witnessing the demonstrations or other uncooperative (and untrained) subjects.

At least you seem to acknowledge that LKJ works on the receiver’s mind (intent) rather than trying to explain it as something like ‘bioelectricity’ or ‘magnetism’ (although many who feel LKJ seem to equate the sensation to something like magnetic force). Even though I am just a hobbyist and no where near to being a master, I actually have some experience affecting people’s movements, to some degree, without their knowledge. Walking up behind people on a sidewalk, I can sometimes get them to move over to one side or the other using only my thoughts (intent), but this is when they are unaware of me (they are neither compliant nor resistant and are sometimes startled when I pass by them). So I feel that this may be trained, but I am not leaving what I feel is practical in order to go after something that may be extraordinary.

I would prefer personally to train the basic principles of the art and if that eventually leads to being able to more significantly control someone who is noncompliant and/or resisting, then I’ll welcome it when it comes. For now I would rather use my intention to potentially add to how I affect an opponent physically (e.g. thinking and pointing in the direction that I want someone to fall when off-balancing them may add to the degree of my success in moving them), but I do not train LKJ separately, although it is perhaps a part of the “basic principles” that I practice. If the mental adds to the physical, and eventually becomes more and more of the total effect, then fine.

[XiaoXiong]

I wonder if that's the same Jeff who's been helping me out. Im pretty sure it is. If thats him, he seems to the best taiji guy I've found yet.
Jess

[windwalker]

"This type of energy is extraordinarily profound, bordering on the mysterious. People who witness this don't believe it. In actuality though, it is just a kind of effect upon the consciousness. When high level masters use this energy, all they have to do is shout "ha" and the opponent's two feet will leave the ground and they will jump back. This is because the consciousness of the person being bounced has already been enticed by the master and they cannot resist. This being the case, the person being affected such, must first understand the energies of adhering and sticking. He moves back from (his own) feeling (of these energy changes in the master). Without his first having a familiarity with these energies it will be ineffective."

no where does the author say that they can do it nor have experienced it.
the last sentence is laughable if not ignorant.
why would any one practice something that only effects those who know about it and so then can become influenced by it?
doesnt make much sense.

having felt, and have some small understanding of it, much of what was written doesnt really reflect my own thoughts or experiences.

noncompliant and/or resisting,

how does one resist or comply with something that is not felt consciously?
what is seen are unconscious reactions to what is felt.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzYCqNn ... re=related


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_of_mass

most of what the teacher is doing can be explained using this diagram.

[Andy_S]

Jess:

SNIP
It just doesn't seem like he uses the taiji principals at all. It's not the same. Not bad, but not the same.
SNIP

Well, once full force is in use - as in actual PH tourneys, for eg - how clearly can you see "Taiji principals?"

There is a series of clips up on the web showing many of the top masters of today and yesterday meeting for PH in Beijing in (IIRC) the 1980s. Several people here expressed their astonishment and dismay at the lack of skill being shown by these god-like masters who were actually competing against each other, rather than simply pushing around their students.

I don't disagree with Windwalker in that the highest level of MA is the ability to deflect, redirect and/or return incoming force with very light, economical motions. But that level of skill is very, very rare. IMHO, too many Taiji people spend too much time training with too little force and with too little of the element of competitiveness.

This seems to be particularly the case in US PH tourneys, less so in European and Asian tourneys. I am not sure why this is so (and it may be an inaccurate observation based largely on UTube). But perhaps it is because so many people see Tajii as a health system or as a rather mystical kind of exercise that grants unusual skills, rather than as a per se combative system.

I'd be curious to learn more of what yourself and Windwalker consider to be "intent" and "using intent."

[AllanF]

I really don't see Chen style generally as representing the ideals of Taijiquan. Some Zhaobao looks good. But really it seems the Yang and Wu style folks have the most internal skill that I've seen. I'd like to see if Dan Harden has any good examples of IP on video as well.
Jess

http://www.56.com/u20/v_NzQ4MzY1Mjk.html

Chen Fake - LiJingwu

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDk4NDM1MDQw.html

Chen Fake - Li Jingwu - Ren Zhongxin

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzEzOTQ3NzYw.html

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjc0ODAyOTI0.html

Chen Fake - Hong Junsheng

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjcwOTM4NjU2.html

Chen Fake - Hong Junsheng - Li Chugong

Pretty good representation of taiji principles from the Chen side (Liu Chengde is also from the Chen Fake - Hong Junsheng lineage). The village lineage of Chen style has taken more of a wrestling focus but if you look at clips of Chen Bing you can see taiji principles. (I wanted to post a clip of Chen Bing doing push hands with some chaps in a car park in China but i can't get on YouTube at the moment.)

The point is No "style" is more accurate a representation of taijiquan than any other "style". If you seek patterns of what is good then you will see that there is good and bad everywhere, the common principles are the ONLY thing that is important, doesn't matter if it is Taijiquan, Baguazhang, Xingyiquan, Daito Ryu or whatever. Common principles/training patterns are the only important thing.

[ors]

IMHO, too many Taiji people spend too much time training with too little force and with too little of the element of competitiveness.

That is perfectly right for sure... Unfortunatelly.

I'd be curious to learn more of what yourself and Windwalker consider to be "intent" and "using intent."

Me too!

What I see is that this subject is very, very confusing. What is "high level skill" and what is "low level skill"? I simply don't understand theese levels.
People usually mix some concepts. What is "don't use force" ? What is "use intent".
"Bu yong li" from p.e. Wang Peisheng doesn't mean "don't use force". It means "don't use the kind of force you used to". "Li" doesn't mean "force" generally. Or it does, but then there are other kinds of forces as well. Such as "jin" or "yi".
We mustn't forget the classics and we have to remember that correct practice leads us to understand energy (dong jin)... That means that slowly we will understand the "behavior" of force. Where is it originated? Where and on what ways is it going...etc.
"Yong yi" can simply mean "use the concept" as well. "Yong yi, bu yong li" can simply mean "Don't force! Use the concept instead!"
Other teachers use "yi" to refer a kind of "using the force". Leading force. When you concentrate on not the origin of the force (which is the typical use of it) but the "end part" of it... "the tip of the force". Sorry I don't know the correct word!
The kind of practice what we saw in the first few clips is about this. Practicing "leading force".
Using leading force against someone who is not used to it, can be almost misterious. But if you try to use it against somone who is used to it, the result will be much less effective.
That is why the top masters PH series wasn't as spectacular as we hoped...
When you use this kind of force in a lively enviroment (like Ziqiang) the result will look differently again.

Örs

[MaartenSFS]

Well put, Ors.

In all honesty, two of the best fighters against each other can often be boring, especially when they are afraid to take risks for safety or face-saving purposes. The fights that look spectacular are very one-sided and the principles can be clearly observed. My comment has nothing to do with Kongjin, though, just fighting in general.

[AllanF]

The Chen Bing clip i wanted to show...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9kFxPuRYSg

[D_Glenn]

Chen Yanlin (陳炎林) writes some about the lingkong jin (凌空勁) ability in his 1943 book 太極拳刀劍桿散手合編 TAIJI COMPILED: THE BOXING, SABER, SWORD, POLE, AND SPARRING.

He seems to indicate that while this skill is real and appears miraculous, “it is not something you ardently need to strive for, for it is really just a parlor trick,” (according to Brennan’s translation).

此勁異常奧妙。近於神祕。而非目覩者所能信。實乃一種精神上之作用而已。藝高者發此勁時。僅須口中一哈。對方卽雙足離地而後退。蓋因被發者。精神已為發者所吸引。無可抵抗。然被發者必須先明沾黏等勁。故一哈之後。卽由感覺而後退。否則發者仍無效。此勁雖奧妙莫測。但學者可不必深求。僅作遊戲觀可耳。相傳昔時楊健侯少侯父子。能吸引燭火近尺。一手隔之。火光遂熄。卽凌空勁中之一法。惟此功夫今已 失傳云。

my point would be that much of their skill stems from the basic principles and ideas from which "LKJ" arrives from.
its not something "one strives for" but arrives to, naturally with a deepening understanding of the real skill being developed.

I have always said that touched or not the principle is the same. Why any teacher would then say "it is really just a parlor trick" would seem to indicate they never met with any high level exponent of it, and more to the point that they dont seem to really understand the basis of their own art.

Here is perhaps a better translation for this section than Brennan’s. It comes from Jeff (Gu Rouchen):

"This type of energy is extraordinarily profound, bordering on the mysterious. People who witness this don't believe it. In actuality though, it is just a kind of effect upon the consciousness. When high level masters use this energy, all they have to do is shout "ha" and the opponent's two feet will leave the ground and they will jump back. This is because the consciousness of the person being bounced has already been enticed by the master and they cannot resist.

It is just a parlor trick. There's a video of Wang Peisheng physically throwing a guy all over the place, to the point where he's terrified of Wang and then all that WPS has to do at the end of the video is just make the 'Ha' sound (Japanese 'Kiai') and the guy reacts, flinches, etc, or just threaten an attack and the guy flinches.

It's only just a trick because in an assault, the attacker is probably not going to know how good of a martial artist Wang Peisheng was, before he attacks, so 'Lin Kong Jin' won't work.

You might be able to get it to work in a sparring situation, where say you do something successfully once, and then only have to start to do it a second time and the partner might react to it as if it's real, and you can borrow that reaction to employ a different attack. That's another example of 'Lin Kong Jin'. But since the chances of that happening and working in a real life self defense situation are slim to none, then it still just falls under the category of parlor tricks. There's a lot of 'tricks' in the CMAs, and most are for being able to demonstrate something on a student without hurting them.

.