Bian Zhiqin got it or not?

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Re: Bian Zhiqin got it or not?

Postby Josealb on Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:32 pm

Im sure its that real to all the students that learn from George Dillman, and the students of all those empty force guys who can be found in youtube. Its very real to them too.
The exact same arguments can be used there, same result.


Somehow, it never works with outsiders. I guess the qi is not developed enough in them. Maybe one day ill be lucky enough to experience this illusive skill that cannot be explained in words, and that somehow Luo Dexiu, Qian Zhaohong, Tim Cartmell, Akuzawa, Dan Harden, Lu Baochun, (insert your favorite Chen or Zhao Bao guy here), are too low level to demonstrate.

Edit: Experience is highly subjective when a result is hoped for and expected. People experience miracles and angels every day in my country, for this same reason. The beauty of it is that the laws of reality exist whether people believe in them or not.
Last edited by Josealb on Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bian Zhiqin got it or not?

Postby XiaoXiong on Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:53 pm

I think you're taking my words out of context. But in a way you could be right. I don't comment on whatv they can't do, maybe they can. Luo did some pretty cook stuff certainly, and Qian... so I don't really know where you are coming from with this. I'm not talking about no touch stuff per se btw. I'm talking about what's actually in the clips.
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Re: Bian Zhiqin got it or not?

Postby XiaoXiong on Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:07 pm

I think mostly you guys are just biased against this stuff. Hey I was too, and I'm only truly convinced of what I've felt for myself. It's whatever. I hope that more people can consider the validity of these abilities, and expand their minds from these discussions.
Jess
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Re: Bian Zhiqin got it or not?

Postby XiaoXiong on Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:36 pm

Btw Jose I see you edited your post to be more polite, which I appreciate. I would though like to respond to something you said which you edited out about people possibly appearing weak etc... There may be a few old timers who have hung around Beijing who knew Yang Kun. He was a Yin Fu stylist, and he wasn't faking his illness. He passed away not long after that visit, and was in his late 80s or even 90s at the time of George's visit. I'm sure you can ask him about it. He was really great and honest martial arts guy. He only got up out of bed because George was beating up his students and he had to represent his art to save face. Your biases will not serve you well in martial arts or life. The name dropping assumption making thing came off pretty childish to me. So moving on.

Why don't we all believe in internal skills, on this internal skill training methods website? What does it say about those who seem to contradict themselves by practicing methods that espouse the internal principals, but refuse to recognize these skills in fairly clear demos? I mean it seems clear enough that the people being affected aren't really acting right? I mean maybe they aren't in the same mind frame as a fighter, but that's not the point people are making is it? If so, than that is simple to explain. That is part of taiji principal, to mess with the mind so that the person doesn't feel the fight happening, right? Also these people who are being pushed etc. seem mostly to recognize that they are not working in the context of combat, but of skill development.
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Re: Bian Zhiqin got it or not?

Postby windwalker on Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:07 pm

Somehow, it never works with outsiders. I guess the qi is not developed enough in them. Maybe one day ill be lucky enough to experience this illusive skill that cannot be explained in words, and that somehow Luo Dexiu, Qian Zhaohong, Tim Cartmell, Akuzawa, Dan Harden, Lu Baochun, (insert your favorite Chen or Zhao Bao guy here), are too low level to demonstrate.


I once asked my own teacher about this he said " what would be the point, if he dosent use enough of his energy they wont feel it, if he does by the time they do they would be injured" So he prefers to let tourist be tourist.

I could give many fist hand accounts of people that I know who've reacted pretty much the same way maybe to a lesser degree then the students out of concern by the teacher of injury to them with students he is more free 8-) .
having felt this many times. In the beginning, it makes one feel sick, like throwing up. many dont like to be demoed on because of this.


the point is that there are people like myself and others who have first hand experience and work in this area.
in most of the discussions it starts to get down to having to prove something that one knows, for what? what would be the point?
none of us or myself for example are asking the questions or wondering whats what, at most I try to point out inconsistencies in what people write and say.

for example many use words like qi, yi, ect, and then seek to limit something that has yet to be proved by western science to their own understandings or experiences.
its like the often used word "physics" used to some how suggest that what is seen goes against the laws of physics.

a lot of it can be explained through physics,


the title of the thread "Bian Zhiqin got it or not?"

unless one can do some, or felt some of what she shows, how would one know? :-\

post edit:

I guess the qi is not developed enough in them

8-) good question

if it follows that what is being moved is what is sometimes called the qi field
then it would mean, that if ones field is deficient the teacher must then use his own qi to energize the others field.
like blowing up a partially deflated balloon

why would they do this on a tourist ? use their own energy?
if ones energy is well developed, the teacher can move this easily
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bian Zhiqin got it or not?

Postby windwalker on Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:26 pm


Published on Sep 18, 2012
李和生-杨氏老六路内功太极拳讲座-05-三角力
Li He-Sheng, Yang Style TaiJiQuan, Old Six Sets, Triangular Force


physics 8-) even one can not understand what he says,
look at the drawings, and watch his demo,,,it should be pretty clear. ;)

in this day and age, the net very amazing at times...
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bian Zhiqin got it or not?

Postby AllanF on Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:06 am

XiaoXiong wrote:I don't agree. My own teacher has told me stories about Yang Kun who needed help out of bed, then tossed him accross the room and needed help back to bed. I've met others who were really good but mostly only show more clear stuff. Even teacher Luo and Qian showed me some of this kind of stuff. Jeff has made a lot of it clearer for me by explaining and demonstrating some of the principals. It's not mystical, it's real and I think people are making certain distinctions that I am not. I see more similarity in the videos posted than differences. It's a matter of degrees of difference to me. I think that what blows my mind is that all these IMA guys don't believe in the high level skills. That is so sad. Isn't that why we chose IMA? For high level skills? I didn't choose to study taiji so that any mma guy with 2 years of training could kick my ass. That's all I'm sayin'. Don't you guys believe in the depth of these arts!?! Wtf? Did you think you knew it all? Reality check, you don't know everything, and everything is not easy to explain. What if all that daoist shit is true? What if you can't speak of it?
Jess


The stories of Yang Kun that you mentioned are similar for other IMA masters, Li Jingwu and Hong Junsheng were two of Chen Fake's students who similarly in their twilight years suffered from the effects of old age and yet could throw people around easily. Sagawa Yoshiyoki , of Daito-ryu fame, also said he couldn't open a jar and all his body was good for was throwing people around.

I don't think that people here are dismissive of high level skills, i certainly am not having lived in China and having seen both sides of the coin - I've met people who had me in knots as soon as i made contact and on the flip side i have met 'masters' who had students jumping around and yet when i touched them i was able to move them around almost at will (off the top of my head i can think of 4 *cough* masters like that and another that resorted to cheap shots when we were doing push hands). For what it is worth even though i have returned to Scotland i still try to met with the highest level guys i can find, in fact even though i currently train in Kali with a world class teacher and truly fantastic all round martial artist i am considering quitting it because IMA is far better IMHO. To that end i am going to see another world class IMA teacher in June.

What people are trying to do is offer you a word of caution, in that because to achieve that level of skill is a rare thing (even within a group of students of a top class IMA teacher), Some "masters" live off the reputation of their Shifu as people will be attracted by the allure of a lineage and as noted on another thread 80-90% of people in China don't train to get real skills they are happy to 'play at taijiquan'. Factor into that, that is it easier to take 'short cuts' for demonstration purposes. i.e. no student who has invested a great deal of time and effort with one teacher would be willing to make their teacher loose face in a very public demonstration and thereby exposing the fact that they have been drinking the kool-aid (as they say in the US). You soon realize that ultimately out of the millions of people that practice taijiquan and IMA the number of true masters can be counted on your fingers and toes.

I also would not be so quick to dismiss the likes of Chen Ziqiang and the village people, as IMA is a continual refinement of the body, Chen Ziqiang is still young and will undoubtedly continue to refine his body method. Chen Fake, Li Jingwu, Hong Junsheng, Sagawa Yoshiyoki etc. were not born with high level skills, but worked their arses off to get them and continued to work until the end.

That gives you an idea of just how discerning you have to be in the path you want to walk. Go out there and meet as many "masters" as you can, talk to them but more importantly get hands on them. Seeing is not believing...feeling is believing!
AllanF

 

Re: Bian Zhiqin got it or not?

Postby windwalker on Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:37 am

What people are trying to do is offer you a word of caution, in that because to achieve that level of skill is a rare thing


+1 ;)

which is why many may never come into contact with it.
what I often read in reading the postings is that once finding one of those with that level of skill.
the poster's own experiences, judgments, start to come into question.
most that I have come to know, have decades of experience many would be
considered masters of their respective styles.


I'm telling you guys, I know wtf I am talking about. This is good stuff. The clip you posted with the more pugilistic stuff is great. Thats a fine example of taiji skill, but its not any better just because it looks pugilistic. I'm sorry to call you guys out but you just are missing something here because it doesn't fit your pugilistic paradigm. To me these doubts of this kind are based on experience with fraud. Fair enough, its true. There are some frauds around in ima for sure, but the reason I believe in these vids being superb examples of taiji skill is that I have studied it a bit quite carefully, and finally got to experience this kind of skill personally, and I was proven wrong about any doubts I had.


the OP statement.

Everything I said about Neigong and training methods is all wrong. I have been so utterly convinced that the opposite is true that I withdraw all of my former opinions on the matter.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21343

see a pattern ?
both are what I would call true seekers, each with their own histories and experience, and yet willing to change when confronted by something that either their looking for or run into.
I work with many long time taiji people seeking to put the taiji into their practices.
most still want to keep their practices, which kind of prevents them from really making any real changes needed, despite understanding that what they currently do will not get them their.

many are like this, hard to let go :-\
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Re: Bian Zhiqin got it or not?

Postby XiaoXiong on Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:02 pm

Thanks for those thoughts. I agree it is rare. Do you guys think the people in these videos are using those skills? Is that hard to tell? I watch the timing and the students ability or self preservation to maintain coordination as the technique is applied. The ones who look relaxed and get pushed around still are the best. That's why I like the Hu Liqun one so much. I can tell you guys though, I'm a pretty tough crowd in ma. I've been looking for a taiji teacher for a year or so, and still will not sign up at any place I've been so far. The best I've found was for free in the park, and the folks don't even call themselves teachers.
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Re: Bian Zhiqin got it or not?

Postby windwalker on Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:24 pm

from another thread

It's impossible to explain how these two sensei can devastate your center with, what appears to be, very minimal effort. If you haven't felt it, no video is going to convey what you are feeling in your dandien, hara, center, whatever. It's really quite frightening, thinking you've got this guy, dead to rights, and suddenly you're kind of locked in a weird position where you can't get another attack off without creating a major opening for your opponent to take advantage of and decimate you, and you don't have a freaking clue as to how you wound up in that position in the first place! My experience with Saotome sensei taught me that aikido, as a modern, Japanese martial art, says: "Oh, you tried to attack/injure/kill/rob me? OK, I'm going to break your arm or toss you on your head, but since I'm into peace & harmony, I won't outright kill you, like another martial artist might."

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21238&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=60

and yet people keep asking about reactions in videos

The best I've found was for free in the park, and the folks don't even call themselves teachers.

+1
like a certain old man I know in a beijing park 8-)
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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