Bian Zhiqin got it or not?

[XiaoXiong]

Note in the above (3rd) video that the older guy with the bald spot tries to resist then seems baffled.

I don't like this kind of demo in the above clip, but I included it because I still think that if you look closely at these you can often see the effect and tell it comes from her body and transfers to the other. The thing is to not throw out the baby with the bath water because the demo looks like fishy stuff. It does look kinda fishy at first, but look closer.


Jess

[shawnsegler]

I think there's skill there that's done a disservice by some weird Chinese cultural thing. It's like you can see she has good angles and it legitimately looks like you can sort of see where she's gaining advantage on the people she's pushing with but whenever they get the lower hand they go with it in a really exagerated way to make it look more impressive. It's such a shame when that sort of thing goes on. I know you want' to be polite to your teacher and all that and that people can have some pretty strange behavior when they believe in/ fixate on things in a dis-ingenuous way...but, man...really?

A shame.

S

[XiaoXiong]

Yeah I wonder though. I've seen videos of people flying who I know aren't hamming it up.
Jess

[Josealb]

Jess, forgive me if i missed this on the other thread, but have you personally experienced this exact same effect, someone moving you like in those clips, or the clips on the other taiji thread?

[XiaoXiong]

I woukd say I don't know for sure, but close enough for me to see the relationship between one and the other.
Jess

[AllanF]

Bian Zhiqin is the disciple of Li Jingwu as is Ren Zhongxin, clips of whom i posted on the other thread...but...here is a clip of Li Jingwu, (Note the 2nd person doing tuishou with him is reportedly NOT his student and does Xingyiquan). From the above clips of Bian Zhiqin it would appear that she has surpassed her teacher and Ren Zhongxin by quite some margin!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgt7YBDktjo



Do their body methods look the same?

[shawnsegler]

Well, after years of critiquing these kinds of video's my take on it is this. I'm open to anyone's skill level and achievement but it is simply IMPOSSIBLE to truly gauge it over the internet. Until you cross hands you really don't know. Like I said about her first video. There are things I could see that I think were fairly subtle qualities of advantage but I also don't see those guys having energy transferred through them to make them react to the "extent" that they do. It might be that she's somehow leading their minds to the point that they jump like they're expecting something that will throw them off and then throw themselves off in expectation but I'm pretty sure that it's them adding to whatever she's doing at least some. Once again that says nothing about her skill. Crossing hands = knowledge...internet equals "who knows".

My 2c.

S

[Josealb]

What bugs me is that in this forum we have people that have been practicing 40 years, and travelling the world, etc. How come they have never talked about personally experiencing skills like these? These people have had contact with top guys, so to say they just havent met anyone like this, would mean that the people in these clips are light years away from the top guys that our senior members have met. Thats extremely unlikely.

Also, when someone actually comes up and says that they have experienced it, the details are always fuzzy, or mystical. How hard is it to prove something objectively, if you claim to understand it? Because the alternative is that you dont understand it, and if you dont, you shouldnt be making claims to begin with.

We have all seen extreme examples of suggestion in martial arts, and reactions caused more by psychology than actual physics. A simple explanation would be something with at least some of this, along with skill. Its just simpler, and raises no questions, as opposed to some pinnacle of skill 99% of skilled guys have never experienced.

Just a bit of brainstorming here.

[XiaoXiong]

I don't agree. My own teacher has told me stories about Yang Kun who needed help out of bed, then tossed him accross the room and needed help back to bed. I've met others who were really good but mostly only show more clear stuff. Even teacher Luo and Qian showed me some of this kind of stuff. Jeff has made a lot of it clearer for me by explaining and demonstrating some of the principals. It's not mystical, it's real and I think people are making certain distinctions that I am not. I see more similarity in the videos posted than differences. It's a matter of degrees of difference to me. I think that what blows my mind is that all these IMA guys don't believe in the high level skills. That is so sad. Isn't that why we chose IMA? For high level skills? I didn't choose to study taiji so that any mma guy with 2 years of training could kick my ass. That's all I'm sayin'. Don't you guys believe in the depth of these arts!?! Wtf? Did you think you knew it all? Reality check, you don't know everything, and everything is not easy to explain. What if all that daoist shit is true? What if you can't speak of it?
Jess

[XiaoXiong]

Bian Zhiqin is the disciple of Li Jingwu as is Ren Zhongxin, clips of whom i posted on the other thread...but...here is a clip of Li Jingwu, (Note the 2nd person doing tuishou with him is reportedly NOT his student and does Xingyiquan). From the above clips of Bian Zhiqin it would appear that she has surpassed her teacher and Ren Zhongxin by quite some margin!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgt7YBDktjo



Do their body methods look the same?

Hmm I wrote a whole response to this that got lost...

I think I don't see major differences, in fact they look like teacher and student to me, and I think Li is clearly more skillfull as he applies a greater variety of techniques to more experienced looking students of the arts, and does so against their better attempts to defend themselves. That's how I see it.

It also looks more like he is thinking about how he could hurt them.
Maybe that's the intent that is making people doubt some videos and not others.
Some are not thinking about finishing the fight and some are.
Bian isn't really. But her skills seem like they could certainly be used that way if she chose. I tend to be very martial myself actually if you ever train with me. But a lot of teachers take an easy attitude so that people are comfortable with the training and get the skills. That way they actually have students
Jess

[shawnsegler]

I don't agree. My own teacher has told me stories about Yang Kun who needed help out of bed, then tossed him accross the room and needed help back to bed. I've met others who were really good but mostly only show more clear stuff. Even teacher Luo and Qian showed me some of this kind of stuff. Jeff has made a lot of it clearer for me by explaining and demonstrating some of the principals. It's not mystical, it's real and I think people are making certain distinctions that I am not. I see more similarity in the videos posted than differences. It's a matter of degrees of difference to me. I think that what blows my mind is that all these IMA guys don't believe in the high level skills. That is so sad. Isn't that why we chose IMA? For high level skills? I didn't choose to study taiji so that any mma guy with 2 years of training could kick my ass. That's all I'm sayin'. Don't you guys believe in the depth of these arts!?! Wtf? Did you think you knew it all? Reality check, you don't know everything, and everything is not easy to explain. What if all that daoist shit is true? What if you can't speak of it?
Jess

I never said I don't believe in high level skills, and I've seen some pretty amazing shit myself. I'm just saying that in my experience, while I see things she's doing that are subtle and that show she is highly skilled, she's obviously not using them in a way that would damage her students by actually making them fly during practice. What I'm saying is that it seems to me like she's giving them a little, enough for them to be off balance or whatever, and they are adding to it. Why they are doing it might be an aspect of her skill at leading their minds in such a way as to cause them to add that energy to the movements but I don't see her discharging into them and them being knocked out by that. She is giving them small energy and they are going with it in a particular way that might be because they're her students and they want her to look good subconsciously or Confucian deference or just their own spastic tendencies. I don't know. And I don't think I can know from my level of ability to see any further than I saw, but within that framework, that's what I saw and so I'd have to feel it to know for sure.

S-king of the run on sentence.

[Josealb]

I don't agree. My own teacher has told me stories about Yang Kun who needed help out of bed, then tossed him accross the room and needed help back to bed.

Thats cool. My own teacher also told us that in china its a very common thing, to act strong when you are weak, and weak when you are strong. He remembered elders that acted all frail and weak, beard, walking stick, but in reality these guys were strong as an ox because of a lifetime of old school training. Im not saying your anecdote is a lie, but im saying that there can be much simpler explanations.

I've met others who were really good but mostly only show more clear stuff. Even teacher Luo and Qian showed me some of this kind of stuff. Jeff has made a lot of it clearer for me by explaining and demonstrating some of the principals. It's not mystical, it's real and I think people are making certain distinctions that I am not. I see more similarity in the videos posted than differences. It's a matter of degrees of difference to me. I think that what blows my mind is that all these IMA guys don't believe in the high level skills. That is so sad. Isn't that why we chose IMA? For high level skills? I didn't choose to study taiji so that any mma guy with 2 years of training could kick my ass. That's all I'm sayin'. Don't you guys believe in the depth of these arts!?! Wtf? Did you think you knew it all? Reality check, you don't know everything, and everything is not easy to explain. What if all that daoist shit is true? What if you can't speak of it?
Jess

I dont know, Jess. You seem to have made up your mind about this even before you started practicing. Theres nothing wrong with starting anything with a personal belief, but it would be a mistake to not adjust it to facts, data, feedback, experiences, etc, that one might miss because one is too close minded. You see this everywhere today with the anti-vaccine people.

You mentioned Luo, and Qian (Zhao hong?). These are excellent martial artists with a fairly high level. Ive never seen any of them do whats on these videos, and i suspect that will never happen. You are free to believe what you want, of course. I may be wrong, but im open to anything that might change my mind.

[XiaoXiong]

Well I have. I've seen Luo make people jump and skip across the floor, I've seen Qian bounce people with soft force up into the air. I didn't make up my mind. You're had to be proven to me over and over, and I am constantly analyzing it. But it rings true to me. So I follow my heart. Now I'm finding people who are willing and able to explain things that others never did. That ear me to this conclusion. While I say I am a beginner in taiji, you have to understand, that I have a lifetime in martial arts, and over ten years in Yi Zong arts including several doing CPL taiji from Luo.
Jess

[windwalker]

What bugs me is that in this forum we have people that have been practicing 40 years, and travelling the world, etc. How come they have never talked about personally experiencing skills like these?

FWIW: i started training taiji since 1980
started going to china, since 02 working with those who have these skills
in traveling my own taiji path.

my first reaction in posting was not to mention things directly.
until I felt I had developed enough of an understanding of it, this was some 10yrs back.
I have practiced CMA other arts since the early 70s.

what would posting anything about it get one?
just people talking about drinking the koolaid and casting doubt about the posters work.

if the skill level is not up to understanding how or whats going on its not real, until one experiences first hand.
even then many question it.

its that different

[windwalker]

You are free to believe what you want, of course. I may be wrong, but im open to anything that might change my mind.

can some one explain when an experience becomes a belief?
in essence what others are asking one to do is dismiss their own experiences and work,
in favor of?