More Sweet Brinkman-y Goodness.

[C.J.W.]

The great irony of IMA is that people who can fight don't necessarily understand it, but people who understand it can't necessarily fight.

[Ian]

Ian the way you are describing of moving is indeed the way that the majority of people, sportsmen/women and martial artists move.

Allan,

The myotatic / stretch reflex is used in many internal styles, including Aunkai and Chen taiji.

[GrahamB]

As a long time Yi Zong guy I can say it's not. Yi Zong has internal stuff in it, but it's not teaching the same internal stuff as the internal stuff of Yang and Wu style taiji. The stuff I learned from the Yi Zong school is still very good, and all of it including the shoulder rolling can be done from the Dan tian, but it's not what i think Dan or other internal guys I know from Taiji are doing. It trains the same skills, but they aren't explained in the curriculum, and are not applied the "internal" way in practice. I had to get that stuff from taiji, and now I understand bagua A LOT better. No offense to anybody. Yi Zong is great. Great fighting and training, I love it. But in my opinion some things are definetly not present in the Yi Zong curriculum that are essential to internal skills, and none of the people I know of in Yi Zong including Luo are aware of them. I know this for a fact, take it as you will. Yi Zong is known for fighting, and it excels at that. But as Dan Harden himself said of his meeting with Luo, it's not the same as what I think he and I and Windwalker and others are calling internal.
Jess

Oh Lordy...

[XiaoXiong]

Oh Lordy what? It's different. So what? I'm so sick of ego in martial arts. All these people worried about legacy. Lame, sad, I don't care. Yi Zong Bagua is great fighty stuff, but it doesn't teach how to do internal fighting. Tim Cartmell is wrong about ima. It doesn't take anything away from what has been accomplished by them, but they don't have the whole picture. If that's hard to swallow, the truth is a bitter pill. I invested long years in the system. Do you think it was easy for me to set aside what I knew and go down a completely different track, essentially starting over? It's a mess this world of internal martial arts. I say it's better that we're starting to sort it out a bit. People are meeting up, things are being done openly, and nobody is getting hurt. Internal power is being introduced to the west in a new way. Western teachers are showing skills that Asian teachers haven't shown. So yeah, Oh Lordy, the nei jia is here. If any of you are offended at what I say about Yi Zong or it's members and what they do and don't know, we can talk about it. I'm in no way trying to harm anybody. I just will not be contributing to this vast and persistent confusion any longer.
Jess

[Wanderingdragon]

AGREED !!! Well said and very true.

[shawnsegler]

Jess, we've always gotten along and I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but getting frustrated over the apparent lack of mental connections between different people on the subject "OVER THE INTERNET" is fruitless and will give you more anger than answers.

The truth of the matter is that, like most things in life, extraordinary claims take extraordinary evidence..or even just evidence. As yet, for the most part, it's not forthcoming for a lot of things and is difficult to prove even with demonstrable evidence. If you, or others, can't produce it then getting frustrated with other people for not believing it is a losing proposition.

I also have always been an advocate of exploring the more esoteric skills of IMA. I think I've discussed with you in the past the necessity of the ability to turn ones belief on and off in the pursuit of such things. If you're not open to them you're assured of not finding them. However to bring people along with you you have to realize that talk is worth very little in convincing people. So while, I'm not against these things or believing them to be possible I think the most fruitful way to change hearts and minds is to demonstrate. Bring video footage and clear explanations of what's going on in said videos and if that's not enough get people to meet up and show it that way. You've gone a long way in terms of applying your stuff in real formidable ways. You can't do less in the demonstration of it to people who don't understand it and expect them to just take it for granted.

Anyway in short unless there's something visual or visceral to back it up, save yourself some stress and don't get worked up over people having a hard time believing what they can't see or feel. Otherwise do what you've been doing, go the extra mile and back it up with evidence and intelligent discussion. I would be the first in line to applaud it when It's shown to me. And, for the record, I've been witness to some pretty crazy stuff. So, as I said, my mind (and the minds of many here) are open. Help us through the door if it means that much to you. If not then save yourself some stress and don't worry about it so much.

Best wishes,

S

[AlexF]

Oh Lordy what? It's different. So what? I'm so sick of ego in martial arts. All these people worried about legacy. Lame, sad, I don't care. Yi Zong Bagua is great fighty stuff, but it doesn't teach how to do internal fighting. Tim Cartmell is wrong about ima. It doesn't take anything away from what has been accomplished by them, but they don't have the whole picture. If that's hard to swallow, the truth is a bitter pill. I invested long years in the system. Do you think it was easy for me to set aside what I knew and go down a completely different track, essentially starting over? It's a mess this world of internal martial arts. I say it's better that we're starting to sort it out a bit. People are meeting up, things are being done openly, and nobody is getting hurt. Internal power is being introduced to the west in a new way. Western teachers are showing skills that Asian teachers haven't shown. So yeah, Oh Lordy, the nei jia is here. If any of you are offended at what I say about Yi Zong or it's members and what they do and don't know, we can talk about it. I'm in no way trying to harm anybody. I just will not be contributing to this vast and persistent confusion any longer.
Jess

A brave yet probably unpopular stance Jess true or not. I concur with Shawn's advice, don't get too stressed by others, just do your own stuff, you'll meet more and more seekers that are hearing you or have gone through similar circumstances. I think the cats out the bag in the West, soon enough there will be no denying how different IP/Aiki training is as too many people will be training it and able to at the very least show it FEELS different (even if it translates badly to YouTube).

[Sean]

Tim Cartmell is wrong about IMA? Please explain.
And, have you ever met and trained with the man?

[XiaoXiong]

Tim says that ima is all about body mechanics and position, and that he doesn't believe in qi. He did his research and everyone finds him competent and credible, and so his western opinion becomes gospel to many. I trained in the same system as Tim under Luo, and I trained bjj. I never met Tim, but he has stated his opinion openly on tape. So anyway, he is wrong about qi, and it being useful in martial arts. He looked hard for fighting skills, and that's what he got. He's highly accomplished and deserves his good reputation, he just hasn't been exposed to this kind of internal training where you use the myofascial meridians to take energy and switch them to essentially kuzushi your opponent. Issuing power in Yi Zong was often done from a crashing type of power, where you didnt necessarily know the state of the target. In all of my time at George's classes and Luo's seminars and everything I did with Yi Zong, they never talked about or demonstrated this kind of skill, of knowing the other before attacking. So I don't need to be Tim's best friend to make the statement. I never met him, but he's told us himself on tape what his experience and perspective are on the matter.

"you don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows." -Dylan
Jess

[windwalker]

The truth of the matter is that, like most things in life, extraordinary claims take extraordinary evidence..or even just evidence. As yet, for the most part, it's not forthcoming for a lot of things and is difficult to prove even with demonstrable evidence. If you, or others, can't produce it then getting frustrated with other people for not believing it is a losing proposition.

for some its not very extraordinary, its an everyday thing.

is it not odd, that the "others" tend to agree, accept, and understand the same things.

take some of the recent threads on using things like bricks to practice taiji with.
ask any who practice awareness /intention based arts, why this practice might not
be such a good idea. My bet would be that most would tend to say the same things
using the same reasons. They dont as I dont, understanding that for the most part
it would tend to be counter to what many feel is a good practice, which it might be
for their practices, just not IME/IMO for awareness/intention based arts.

IME many really dont have enough clarity in their practice to really understand what they'er looking for.
its not just in the west, in China its the same with exception that more higher level examples are available
to feel and work with, there's more culturally awareness about things, such as "qi" "yi" "dantian" ect

even with this, its not easy, nor something that one gets with out a lot of effort.

[Sean]

So how do you know that Tim Cartmell is wrong and that you are right?
What is the nature of that knowledge?

[shawnsegler]

@windwalker

Then don't get all bent out of shape when people don't trust what you say. It's fine to say you have something other people don't have but unless you can back it up with some sort of visceral demonstration or whatever then realize it A: doesn't jibe as trustworthy to people who don't get it, and B: comes off as pompous like "I have this magical thing that you don't have but you're not at the level to get it" which turns people off and makes them even less trusting.

I know from experience that it's hard to show certain things to people who haven't put the effort into developing certain sorts of sensitivity, but there SHOULD be the ability to see or feel the results of that skill, and if it's that subtle just realize that when you're talking about it over the net you're going to get disbelief and don't get all bent out of shape about that. It's the sad limitation of talking over the net.

However, also IME if someone can't explain something simply they probably don't understand it thoroughly inasmuch as every really high level guy I've ever met has been able to explain to me in a way that I understood what it was they were doing.

FWIW.

Best,

S


Edit: (please don't take this wrong. It's hard to discuss things over the net without body language and such. I mean this post in the most constructive way possible. Not just as a slam at you. FWIW)

[windwalker]

thanks,,,
BTW I like "Mexican jumping bean"
it makes me smile every time I think about it,
I can just see "JW" talking about it.

your acronym is hard to remember

[I-mon]

Classes with one of his students + seminars with Luo Dexiu =/= a complete understanding of the Yizong system or the extent of Luo's skills and knowledge.

Just sayin'.

P.s. thanks to Marcus B. for the excellent response.

[NoSword]

This is an interesting discussion.

Jess, I actually don't disagree with much of what you've said about "internals" and the YiZong line. I do find the way you've chosen to express yourself (here and on some other threads) aggravating. It probably isn't advancing your cause much in anybody's eyes.

One teacher of mine liked the internals to a house with doors on all sides. (I believe the analogy comes from a Wu taiji text.) What's important is not the door you take to get into the house -- it's that you get "in" somehow. Once you're "in," the interesting work can begin. That might come through bagua, taiji or some other art.

With regards to Marcus, it’s important to note that he had a strong background before hooking up with the Yizong school, and has continued to put considerable research into the ICMA’s beyond his experience in that school. His art is very much his own and it is formidable. Whether what he’s doing is “the same” or “different” from someone else isn’t, for me, a terribly interesting question.

AK